klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<savoita> zid: can you not use LetsEncrypt in ... Slo...vakia?
<savoita> Slovenia?
<savoita> I can't remember where you live.
<zid> the UK
<savoita> Can you not use LetsEncrypt in the UK?
<zid> Why would I do that
<savoita> because they're a verified signer
<zid> You sound pretty ungrateful I even set https up to be honest, and now you want full ssl
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<savoita> I actually think it was probably more effort to set up a self-signed ceritifacte than it would be to use certbot lol
<zid> I didn't set up anything
<savoita> Does Apache provide a dummy cert or something?
<zid> I guess so?
<savoita> huh, interesting
<zid> Or only the ssl part and not the tls part so no certs needed because it's all temp keys? idk
<savoita> I suspect it's just a generic cert that ships with Apache. I'm looking at it, and it just looks generic
<savoita> anyway, thank you 10/10 for setting up HTTPS, I feel much safer viewing your memes
<zid> why
<zid> Your ISP can no longer sniff it, it's still an untrusted source that could be being MITM'd
<savoita> it's safer in the sense that someone would need the expertise required to actually decrypt the traffic
<zid> no?
<zid> A straight up proxy works
<zid> I request from zid.lain.ch, and listen on :443 with my also-invalid-cert
<zid> and serve you it
<zid> I need to do 0 work
<savoita> oh, sure
<savoita> but not my ISP
<zid> your isp could be the one doing it!
<zid> it usually is, if it's anybody
<zid> lots of ISPs have been caught injecting adds into plain http and insecure https
<savoita> you're right, I no longer appreciate the effort you put in to set up SSL. I will not be satisfied until I visit your webpage and recieve full TLS 1.3 encryption.
<savoita> Well, I hope Mullvad isn't doing that
<savoita> it would be very bad for their business
<savoita> but you never know
<zid> lenovo shipped their own ssl root certs in preinstalled machine slol
<savoita> what in the prime fuck
<savoita> what dumb fucking idiot executive thought that was a good idea
<savoita> I swear to god, you give a man an MBA and you give them the false confidence to ruin anything they touch
<zid> a study around that time showed 2% of all http traffic was ad injected
<savoita> advertising is a scourge
<Reinhilde> buah
<Reinhilde> am like, exhausted
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<savoita> Is the offset of the PCIe `Capability Pointer` relative to the base address of the device's configuration space?
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<Mutabah> I believe so?
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<geist> yes
<geist> well, wait. it might be relative to its current position? is it only 256 bytes long?
<geist> oh i see the pcie ones are longer? I should make sure my pci logic can handle that
<geist> s/256 bytes/8 bits
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<savoita> The pointer is only 8 bits, which is why it was a bit confusing to me
<savoita> I am thinking it must be initially relative to the base address of the configuration, but from there relative to the base address of the current capability.
<savoita> I'm not sure.
<savoita> The specification has very unclear wording on this
<heat> i vaguely recall there are capabilities and extended capabilities
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<savoita> It just says "[it's] the/an offset to the next capability", and seemingly never what the offset is relative to
<heat> then there's your answer, it's relative to that cap
<heat> actually, doesn't seem to be. hmm.
<savoita> The osdev.org wiki suggests they're all relative to the base of the configuration space so I will just run with that until it bites me
<heat> i would need to look at the docs again. i distinctly remember there's some kind of extended space for PCIe caps that you can use
<heat> the configuration space is 4K for a reason :)
<savoita> That's what I was thinking, but it's always just referred to as an offset in the docs, and the wiki says "[The Capability Pointer is] the offset (in PCI Configuration Space) of the next capability."
<savoita> Ah, a reddit user had the same question 4 years ago. Marvelous. /u/octocontrabass seems to agree with the wiki in this regard. The Sage has spoken.
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<savoita> $4,500 for the specification PDF and they can't even properly format the text on their webpage, or finish their sentences. https://pcisig.com/PCIConventional/ECN/Firmware/GenericCapabilityStructureforSATAHostBusAdapters
<savoita> Properly unreal
<zid> wanna know a magic trick savoita
<zid> you can just boot grub
<zid> then take a memory dump
<zid> then annotate it in a hex editor
<heat> or just use lspci which is easier and probably parses both the capability list and the capabilities it knows about
<heat> lspci -vv
<savoita> zid: annotate the raw memory dump, of which I have incomplete knowledge of the layout and meanings..?
<savoita> why would that be helpful?
<savoita> heat: I will try that
<zid> savoita: The point is, it would have answered all the questions you have asked here so far
<savoita> I have only asked one question
<zid> okay then
<savoita> And I did answer it myself
<zid> I'll never help again ever
<zid> sorry
<savoita> I'm sorry, that just seems like so much effort to learn how to do, and I didn't really understand why it would be useful
<zid> learn.. how to do
<zid> what
<savoita> I have pretty much no idea how to do what you suggested
<savoita> Boot grub: in QEMU or on my system? Take a memory dump: via memsave in QEMU, or some other mechanism in the root shell, or after boot on a live machine? I have never used grub, save the when regenerating initramfs on Debian or modifying the kernel cmdline.
<zid> err whoops
<zid> I meant 'boot qemu'
<zid> fuck knows why I said grub
<zid> probably because it followed the word 'boot'
<savoita> ooh
<zid> Then I can try putting a program header struct at 0x40 and see if it looks okay etc, and figure out my memory dump and make sure all the fields look like I expected them to look from what I 'learned'
<zid> without having to write code blindly against unknown memory that I've never even seen before
<savoita> I didn't know something like that existed, how neat
<savoita> That's a pretty good idea, thank you
<zid> I've found out about padding I didn't know existed, caught type bugs in my struct declarations etc before now doing this
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<savoita> I know I'm at my wit's end debugging when I'm memsave'ing, because (until now) that meant I was staring at a raw hex repr trying to parse if everything is correct lol.
<zid> I'd like to make (find?) a fancier version of this that could automatically pointer chase
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<zid> do neat things like throw your header set from your OS at it, memory snapshot, and have a fully annotated entire memory dump of your running system :D
<savoita> ... that would be incredibly
<savoita> incredible *
<savoita> I have to imagine that exists
<savoita> hex editing is very useful for hacking, and that would be an extremely convenient feature for that
<zid> imhex maybe can do it idk
<zid> I've just had hex workshop installed for 20+ years
<savoita> Wow, there's one in the browser https://hexed.it/
<savoita> how far we have come
<zid> It's also shite lol
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<Arsen> hex editors are so 2010s
<Arsen> all my homies use https://www.jemarch.net/poke
<savoita> "GNU poke comes with many pre-written pickles that can be used to poke
<savoita> at many different kind of binary data. However, some pickles are big
<savoita> and complex enough to benefit from being distributed on their own
<savoita> packages.
<savoita> why
<zid> That's cute lol
<Arsen> why'd you write decoders for hexdumps?
<Arsen> idk you tell me, why do all hex editors eventually add that feature
<zid> My hex editor thankfully can just parse C declarations
<savoita> no, I am peeved that the website author manually inserted newlines in that paragraph
<Arsen> ooh
<Arsen> yeah idk why the whole website is a single <pre>
<zid> WEBDESIGN
<savoita> what insane HTML
<zid> To be fair, it's much much much easier to do it this way
<zid> getting things to size correctly in html is a fool's errand
<zid> css
<savoita> very true.
<Arsen> i man
<Arsen> mean
<Arsen> thats only half true
<Arsen> i can do it
<zid> prove it
<zid> make me a text box with that text in it that word wraps at the correct place
<zid> no matter which font I use
<Arsen> correct? html can't do that
<zid> ahha
<Arsen> it doesn't know how hyphenation works
<Arsen> whatwg still hasnt gotten news of the TeXbook
<zid> Does html have &breakingnonspace;
<zid> the opposite of &nbsp;
<Arsen> <br>?
<zid> no no breakable but not a break
<zid> that's just a break, obviously
<savoita> if you delivery a new webpage every time the user types a character, you can render a perfectly word-wrapped text box, computed on the server with javascript
<zid> like the dots in a dictionary
<Arsen> the texbook was published in 1984
<Arsen> whatwg isnt too late to the party
<Arsen> its only been 42 years
<zid> abil&breakingnonspace;ity
<zid> so that you can wordwrap as either "ability" or "abil-" "ity"
<Arsen> no again html can't do hyphenation
<Arsen> wait what
<Arsen> IT EXISTS
<Arsen> LMAO
<Arsen> &shy;
<zid> okay so it's called &shy; :P
<zid> til
<Arsen> same
<zid> I learned about <ruby> recently, hence http://zid.lain.ch/ looking like it does
<poggers> goggers?
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<zid> yes
<poggers> poggers
<savoita> zid: do you know Japanese?
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<zid> Not a bit, my bananatoukasenryou friend
<savoita> are you sure? that was spot on
<savoita> could be a latent skill
<zid> 僕のnever going to give you upです
<zid> I only know enough japanese to read horse names
<nikolar> lol
<zid> that's the important use for japanese
<savoita> ...unamusume?
<zid> horse eels?
<nikolar> or umusume for friends
<zid> err eel girls
<savoita> umamusume *
<zid> I wanna play eel girls now :(
<kof673> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby_Project just bundle the hyphenator and then web things will add the &shy
<kof673> that was /s
<zid> savoita: Fun fact, maruzensky is my sister's horse's uncle
<savoita> the rest of my life will be worse for having read that
<zid> you're welcome.
<nikolar> lol why
<nikolar> how does his sister's horse's lineage affect the rest of your life
<savoita> oh wait
<savoita> I thought maruzensky was a person
<savoita> and it was a joke
<Arsen> my mail indexer has been pinning my cpu to 100% for 10 minutes now
<nikolar> lol
<Arsen> wtf
<savoita> this is serious
<zid> no it's a famous japanese racehorse who is in uma musume
<nikolar> what is serious
<savoita> maruzensky is serious
<kof673> thre was a lewis black bit "if it wasn't for my horse, i probably wouldn't have gone to college that year" the memes are multiplying
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<zid> voiced by Lynn!
<zid> That's maruzensky yea
<zid> The red outfit is cooler
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<savoita> it's a public wiki, you can probably submit an edit
<kof673> just further and further memes > The Latin term "caballa" translates to "horse" in
<kof673> English, though it often specifically refers to a female horse.
<zid> savoita: My sister's horse cost £1000, would you like to know how much their original owner paid for him?
<savoita> "... On the road, her hot rod is the one burning rubber, but in a race, it's her own two feet tearing up the track. ..." this is top notch prose
<nikolar> lol
<savoita> zid: I can't imagine it was cheap ...
<zid> savoita: £1,000,000
<savoita> ........
<Matt|home> Hello.
<nikolar> a cool million
<savoita> hi Matt, welcome to the liberachat Umamusume server
<zid> They didn't know he'd be shit at racing BEFORE they raced him, sadly
<zid> and once they've proven it's shit at racing, they're not really worth anything :P
<nikolar> i guess betting on horses has multiple meanings lol
<savoita> The day I pay 1mil for a horse is the day you can revoke my rights and put me in a conservatorship
<zid> They want the stable space back but they're not just going to shoot it in the head thankfully
<zid> so they get sold for basically just the ebay shipping fees
<savoita> they just... ate the fucking los!?
<nikolar> savoita: you do know they can earn multiple millions easily
<savoita> loss*
<nikolar> if they are good
<zid> ofc they did
<zid> A good horse earns tens of millions, and that breeding line is IMMACULATE
<Arsen> why not just get a real job
<nikolar> zid: how much did gold ship squander again
<zid> oh god
<savoita> Arsen: literally
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<zid> savoita: Gold Ship famously was too busy trying to bite the horse in the next stall rather than run the big race he was in
<zid> there was 2 billion yen on golshi to win, £10M
<nikolar> so if the horse just decided to, you know, race
<nikolar> 10 mil
<nikolar> and that's just one race
<zid> gold ship isn't related to my horse :(
<nikolar> that's why it's shit
<zid> 80% of the japanese horses come from our horse's grandparent, but the other 20% are the golshi side
<Arsen> wait are you a horser
<Arsen> (no i dont care what the real name of the profession is)
<nikolar> no, his sister is
<nikolar> are you even paying attention
<Arsen> fascinating
<Arsen> no
<nikolar> smh
<Arsen> im at work
<nikolar> work shmork
<Arsen> arent you
<nikolar> i am
<Arsen> lmao
<nikolar> i am waiting on a ci pipeline
<Arsen> i am waiting on our ci admin
<Arsen> close enough
<Arsen> real
<heat> i'm not waiting on anything
<nikolar> does anyone have heat's boss' phone number
<nikolar> i'd like to tell him something
<heat> I do
<zid> savoita has learned that hex editors and horses exist so far today
<kof673> > Get Bryan Cantrill's contact information, phone numbers, home addresses, age, background check
<Arsen> zid: also gnu poke
<Arsen> my favourite program
<nikolar> zid: making good progress
<zid> poke is a hex editor
<Arsen> fair enough
<Arsen> reductively it is
<zid> It's important not to get your mind saddled with a singular inception of what a tool might look like though, agreed
<zid> you did him a service
<Arsen> saddled
<Arsen> i get it
<Arsen> because horses
<Arsen> good one
<savoita> well, I knew horses existed, as some sort of abstract concept of something people get obsessed with and waste money on. but now I understand, there's calibers to this obsession that I never knew existed
<savoita> there are eye watering sums of money trading hands over horse meat
<savoita> is my world better or worse for knowing this? time will tell
<nikolar> is it also the first time you've heard of gambling
<nikolar> i mean, betting on horse races is very much a cliche lol
<savoita> no, I did that professionally for a while
<savoita> well, hobbily
<savoita> I made a decent amount though
<savoita> I thought that was just in movies, honestly
<savoita> what idiot bets on a horse race
<nikolar> why not
<nikolar> as in, why not horse races
<nikolar> what's the difference compared to betting on other sports
<savoita> there isn't one
<savoita> that's why you don't bet on sports
<nikolar> on that i agree
<nikolar> i thought you were singling out horses lol
<kof673> > Pegasus was an immortal winged horse, one of the two children of Poseidon and Medusa. Along with his brother, the golden-sworded Chrysaor, Pegasus sprang forth most miraculously from his pregnant mother's neck after Perseus had beheaded her
<savoita> nikolar the horse knight
<kof673> from medusa ;D
<nikolar> hey horses are fun
<zid> horse racing at least is a game
<savoita> so is Umamusume like the FIFA of horses?
<zid> imagine giving a shit about american glove ball or whatever
<nikolar> lol
<zid> no fifa is the exact thing it isn't like
<savoita> so more like the NFL 2k of horses?
<zid> no there's no ad breaks
<savoita> how am I supposed to get taken advantage of?
<zid> and they actually play the game to the end instead of stopping 30 times
<zid> exactly my point :P
<heat> umamusume is an anime videogame
<nikolar> Actually the game came first
<savoita> zid: that's true, fwiw I'm not a sportsballfan, I find it painstaking to watch any popular sport from my country (because of the constant breaks)
<savoita> oh, and Canada too, because hockey is the slowest sport ever played
<zid> everything about america is like that, not just the sports, dw
<savoita> so horses do have that one up on the competition
<nikolar> That's why we watch racing sports
<nikolar> They go fast
<zid> I buy small birds
<savoita> like nascar
<zid> because they go cheep
<nikolar> No we don't do nascar
<zid> nascar is a parody of sport, AGAIN
<zid> how does america keep doing this
<nikolar> We do real motosports like f1
<nikolar> Or motogp
<savoita> LOL now that I'm thinking about it
<nikolar> Or idk rally
<savoita> we fuck up every sport, how
<zid> corporate interest
<zid> is all that matters
<savoita> nikolar: agreed, those are cool. I love motorcycle racing.
<nikolar> Yeah motogp is fun
<nikolar> You know, horse racing is kind of sort of motorcycle racing if you squint hard enough
<savoita> vintage motorcycle racing
<nikolar> Lol
<heat> the best part about f1 is when you click the boost button and you just vroooooom past people
<nikolar> Ikr
<heat> and then later you slow down so you have more vrooooom button for later
<nikolar> They really nailed the rules this time around
<nikolar> Absolutely perfect
<savoita> I wonder what kind of mpg the cars get
<nikolar> Yes
<savoita> just in, about 5 mpg
<nikolar> Now do it in normal units
<savoita> I didn't know they couldn't refuel, that's pretty wild. I wonder if any racers have run out of fuel near the end.
<zid> yes
<savoita> what a tragic way to lose
<zid> Compared to the tragic ways to lose in F1
<zid> that's low down
<savoita> what, like dying?
<zid> "We pushed too hard and fell off at the end" is not one of them really
<zid> yes like dying
<savoita> when's the last time that happened?
<zid> few years ago
<savoita> oh, well then. fair enough
<nikolar> I don't think someone managed to run out of fuel like since they weren't allowed to refuel
<zid> one car went off, another car went off on the same corner and smashed into the tractor lifting the first car out of the gravel
<zid> harder to survive when you hit a 50T hunk of steel instead of a tire ewall
<nikolar> So apparently 5mpg is almost 50 l/100km
<nikolar> My yaris does 5
<zid> did you remember to do american gallons
<zid> and not imperial
<nikolar> No clue
<savoita> what is the fuel over distance unit for the EU?
<zid> whatever you want, but typically litres/100km
<zid> UK uses mpg because we're fucking SPECIAL, not that we're in the EU atm
<nikolar> And it's not EU, it's the rest of the world
<savoita> well, let's not split hairs here
<zid> US and Libya are the only non-metric countries :D
<zid> err Liberia
<zid> fuck
<nikolar> Kek
<zid> 7th!?
<zid> FUcking hell oguri try harder
<nikolar> Damn tough luck
<Arsen> >was
<Arsen> >immortal
<Arsen> scam
<nikolar> What
<zid> who
<Arsen> kof673 > Pegasus was an immortal winged horse,
<kof673> he's saying it should be IS immortal
<kof673> ;D
<aoei> ;D
<zid> oh I have the top 10th percentile of schizophrenics ignored
<Arsen> lmao
<zid> (can't ignore them all or this channel would be empty)
<Arsen> what percentile am i
<zid> 50th
<Arsen> merely median? pathetic
<Arsen> I need to step my game up
<zid> well, talk about the dragons stealing the metal out of your teeth more then
<zid> nikolar: 0 fucking carrots up to first camp
<zid> shit run confirmed
<nikolar> Figures
<nikolar> I got nothing as well, don't worry
<savoita> zid: US, Liberia (probably ongoing), Myanmar (ongoing conversion), and Belize
<zid> USA USA USA
<kof673> america was the several states, one nation is all u.s. democracy ;D
<kof673> don't count on us having any idea what we are saying after 160 years of war flag ;D
<savoita> poor commies mad because Americans rich smh
<savoita> cheseburger
<zid> Rich in bullet holes
<savoita> we actually measure the value of things by their weight in bullets
<zid> and length in ar-15s
<zid> and nfl stadia
<heat> rip stadia
<savoita> did you visit here or something? how do you know so much?
<zid> That's the neat part about america
<Arsen> hes in the uk
<zid> you don't have to visit
<Arsen> basically the same country
<zid> they will tell you
<zid> over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
<Arsen> but yeah the US makes itself everyone elses problem
<savoita> in a global economy, everyone makes everyone else their problem
<zid> no
<poggers> i think the time is coming where i'm gonna be pushed to start using AI at work
<Arsen> lol
<poggers> sorry, LLM coding models
<Arsen> serbia does not make itself anyone elses problem nearly as much as america does
<zid> If you think the rest of the world acts like the US, oh boy
<Arsen> we can barely make ourselves a regional problem
<zid> Arsen: How many governments did serbia overthrow this year?
<Arsen> uhhhhh
<Arsen> none? i think
<nikolar> I don't think the us using imperial units or calling their football that has anything to do with a global economy
<zid> US is working on its second so far, it's currently.. april
<savoita> serbia doesn't export or import nearly as much, it's a matter of scale. but I want to be clear, I'm not going to champion the imperialist nature of my government. I didn't choose to be born here
<Arsen> serbia cant overthrow a bunch of students who blockaded the doors of a rectorate
<heat> serbia (the lion) does not concern itself with the opinion of sheep (the rest of the world)
<nikolar> Arsen we can barely make ourselves our own problem lol
<Arsen> which is a good thing
<nikolar> heat that's right
<savoita> well, we did put a flag on it
<nikolar> I wouldn't let a Canadian fly to the moon
<zid> worst, it's in a british space capsule
<zid> so now the plumbing is broken
<nikolar> Oof right
<nikolar> Twice!
<Arsen> HAHHAHAHAHHA
<Arsen> that's the most american thing ive ever seen
<Arsen> nikolar: don't forget when they offered the french to use it
<Arsen> thankfully the french decided against it and just lost a colony instead
<zid> You'd think it was a poe but the amount of insane drivel you see every damn day on the internet coming from americans proves to you that it isn't
<nikolar> Oh I didn't know that
<Arsen> a win-win situation
<zid> wait, who's been offering moon bases to france
<Arsen> i forgot what country it was
<Arsen> oh it was vietnam
<zid> Arsen: I'm reliably informed that NATO started that war and american just helped
<zid> america*
<Arsen> zid: holy fuck where do you get these
<savoita> are these from Facebook?
<zid> Yea, that thing an american invented to overthrow my government with, which worked, sadly
<savoita> ?
<zid> worked in burma too
<savoita> america didn't invent it
<savoita> people who live here did
<zid> savoita: I know 80% of americans are illiterate but you can give it one SMALL extra bit of effort this time?
<savoita> Did I insult you or something?
<savoita> America is not a monolith
<zid> [15:10] <zid> Yea, that thing an american
<zid> [15:10] <savoita> america didn't invent it
<zid> [15:10] <savoita> people who live here did
<savoita> Do you understand that America is not a monolith?
<zid> do you understand.. words?
<savoita> oh I see, my bad
<zid> It's okay, you went through an american school system
<Arsen> lol
<savoita> can you explain why you're being so rude?
<Arsen> zid: but i thought Big Zucc invented it to overthrow obama and elect trump using russia
<savoita> is it just my nationality?
<zid> Arsen: They also did my country as a side project
<Arsen> i see
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<zid> savoita: I was being nice!
<Arsen> i remember when zucc was apologising to the democrats for russiagate
<Arsen> then he remembered hes one of the bosses of american government
<Arsen> and just bought trump
<zid> It's amazing how the country with all the billionaires is also the country where billionaires can just pay a million to have the president say things, I wonder how that happened. Weirdest coincidence ever.
<savoita> zid: you were being nice by insinuating that I'm an idiot because of my education system?
<zid> no, by accepting your extenuating circumstances for not being able to read
<zid> and forgiving you
<savoita> "accepting your extenuating circumstances for not being able to read" is definitionally equivalent to "insinuating I'm an idiot because of my education"
<Arsen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tryNE11_0So good and relevant video
<zid> no you just can't read
<savoita> right
<nikolar> How did we get from umusume to here
<savoita> good question
<zid> oh no, now nikolar's reading comprehension is acting up! ;P
<nikolar> Lol
<nikolar> ffs, how did bitbucket manage to make git clone fail
<savoita> zid: just so you know, it makes me very uncomfortable when you use my nationality as an insult. I understand the country I was born in has peretrated imperialist evil on the world (so has yours, notably), but I do not identify with it, and I do what I can to resist it in my local community, and nationally with protests.
<zid> By hiring me to set their git up, probably
<nikolar> like, host with git repos is its sole reason for existance
<nikolar> *hosting git repos
<zid> savoita: Which is why I forgave you
<zid> you seem mad that I did
<savoita> Do you understand that if you insult someone, it is not you that need to forgive them?
<savoita> needs*
<zid> I insulted you?
<nikolar> well this is fun
<Arsen> delicious
<zid> I forgot to use my hammers nikolar :(
<zid> Arsen: javascript's goal since about 2001 has been to slowly reimplement windows 95, so that's at least something different
<zid> also yea sure oguri just lose the champion's cup with 1100 speed
<savoita> You insinuated that my mistake in reading what you wrote was due to me being an American, rather than just ... being a human, who makes mistakes. I don't find using people's nationality as an avenue of insulting their intelligence very funny, and it bothers me. I just ask that you don't do it to me in the future, that's all.
<nikolar> zid: you got hammers?
<nikolar> lucky
<zid> 'The american education system is great actually' is a very weird hill to die on
<nikolar> Arsen: can't you just, use a global js object and intern manully
<nikolar> i bet it's the same exact amount of code as using "symbols"
<Arsen> symbols aren't just strings
<Arsen> symbols are unique wrt eachother and can be used as keys in objects
<zid> nikolar: I've had 0 runs without 3 hammers
<nikolar> lucky
<Arsen> quite useful for special values
<zid> I don't think so lol
<zid> I think <3 hammers is an exceptionally rare outcome if you do 35 races
<nikolar> i've had a couple without 3 hammers
<nikolar> Arsen: why are we talking about javascript again :P
<zid> are you sure you checked the shop religiously and actually did the races
<Arsen> optimal language for irc clients clearly
<nikolar> zid: yes
<nikolar> Arsen: ah i see
<nikolar> my mistkae
<Arsen> still working on the latter but whatever
<heat> i wouldn't guess emersion to be so jspilled
<heat> pleasant surprise
<nikolar> pleasant?!?!
<nikolar> Arsen: so you're implementing v3 stuff for that
<Arsen> it mostly already has everything implemented
<Arsen> its missing multiline and typing indicators and search
<Arsen> out of the stuff i care about
<savoita> zid: If you aren't interested in apologizing for being rude, then you can just say, "I'm not interested in apologizing when I insult you." You don't need to try and evade the topic.
<zid> I WAS rude. To the American education system. You apparently associate yourself with it as a matter of national pride. I'm not here to prop up your nationalism.
<Arsen> I don't want to be rude but I have to say that it's kinda funny when americans are angry when being teased for being americans
<Arsen> meanwhile bombs are dropped on people for NOT being american every day
<savoita> Oh, did I fly a bomber in my sleep or something?
<heat> i'm sure savoita regrets piloting that F-35 the other day
<zid> We build call-centers around them, even worse :(
<Arsen> I didn't say it's your fault
<heat> some americans bad therefore all americans must pay is a take i guess
<Arsen> "pay"?
<Arsen> it's a joke on irc lad
<nikolar> i am not your lad, mate
<zid> wasn't even a joke or an insult or anything, just an observation.
<zid> "these two things exist concurrently"
<heat> Ermine: project idea: systemd bindings written in rust exposed as javascript
<heat> are you in or out
<heat> we could include systemd-login and systemd-home
<Ermine> the what
<savoita> Arsen: Interpersonal connection is roughly the same (in the damage you can do to someone) whether it's online or in person.
<heat> other idea: wayland compositor written in nodejs
<savoita> If you're a dick to someone, whether online or in person, you are equally responsible for apologizing. Whether you care enough to do that is up to you.
<Ermine> heat: there's one in python
<zid> What if that person failed to read the room, and got insulted by something that held no malice
<zid> who apologizes then
<zid> and they then attacked the other person as rude
<Ermine> what happens anyway
<nikolar> what happens?
<Arsen> savoita: the "irc" part was the less important part there
<Arsen> the "joke" and "bombs" part was the more important part there
<heat> Ermine: javascript would be more funny
<nikolar> heat: when are you making a kernel in javascript
<Arsen> yknow what would be most funny
<nikolar> a kernel in lisp?
<Arsen> make an app
<heat> nikolar: sadly it's already a thing
<Arsen> do it.
<nikolar> oh wait, that exists
<Arsen> nikolar: no, that's normal
<Arsen> yeah
<nikolar> heat: it is?
<heat> yeah, someone has a kernel with v8 embedded and the rest in js
<nikolar> oof, v8 of all things
<Ermine> what else
<zid> wayland in a browser window, hit f11
<zid> perfect OS
<Ermine> mozjs?
<zid> They can finally implement winapi fully
<nikolar> i'd have picked quickjs
<Ermine> zid: hp would love it
<zid> how far through winapi are the js people these days?
<zid> I know they have sound and 3d graphics and usb and printer support
<nikolar> that's chrome specifically
<nikolar> (the usb part at least)
<zid> yea but google thinks that web standards are one-off documents you write to describe how chrome works
<zid> so that's just what javascript ostensibly 'is' now
<Ermine> isn't winrt made for that?
<nikolar> zid: it's just that the webusb or whatever they call it is mostly useless so others haven't bothered to implement it
<nikolar> so it's not js per se
<nikolar> yet
<zid> controllers work fine in firefox
<zid> that might be a sliightly different api though
<nikolar> it is, yea
<nikolar> that's just normal input api
<zid> DirectInput good enough
<zid> don't need full usb
<nikolar> you're not passing through the whole usb device
<nikolar> yea
<zid> winapi doesn't even really have full usb
<savoita> Arsen: Right, I'm an American, and so you can make jokes at my expense because the fascists and authoritarians destroying the country I live in are also destroying other countries. That was the underlying suggestion. I will drop the topic, I just hope I've gotten my point across that it upsets me to have my nationality used insult my intelligence.
<zid> insult your school system*
<savoita> zid, just stop.
<savoita> you don't need the last word.
<zid> I like corrections
<nikolar> to be fair savoita, you keep responding
<nikolar> (and so does zid, but you know)
<Ermine> webusb is useful for grapheneos's and postmarketos's web flashers
<zid> ..flashers?
<nikolar> yea
<zid> I assume they don't mean that in its normal definition
<nikolar> Ermine: afaik, they have actual tools as well
<nikolar> so you don't need webusb
<nikolar> zid: they flash the roms to the android device
<zid> ohhh
<zid> so they don't quickly expose their genitals then
<nikolar> correct
<zid> fucking english noun phrases
<zid> I read it as a [web flasher] not a [web] [flasher
<zid> (something that flashes webs, not a web version of something that flashes)
<Ermine> and yet i've flashed gos through web and got flashed device simple and quick
<nikolar> zid: kek
<nikolar> Ermine: you know what else is simple and quick
<nikolar> ./flasher flash
<nikolar> and you don't need bloody chrome
<Ermine> they don't have that
<nikolar> pmos does at least
<nikolar> last time i checked
<zid> ./flashers -model ITM203289 -size 64 -units kword -rom rom.rom
<heat> another idea: curl https://postmarketos.org/images/image.img | dd of=/dev/sdb bs=4K oflag=direct
<Arsen> savoita: could you give some examples of these extraordinary authoritarians? again, I don't blame you and I didn't insult you. also, for reference as to where my point comes from, I get teased on occasion for being from a country which isnt an imperialist power and where the leaders did at one point, in what can be described as somewhat exceptional compared to the otherwise weak historic position, abuse power to do horrendeous shit, a
<Arsen> nd I shrug it off, because I don't blame anyone for wanting to make fun of me for it. you're from a country that has made sure the world does not have a day of peace since its founding. you can also shrug it off, I'm sure of it.
<zid> heat: perfect
<nikolar> or what heat said
<Arsen> "of me" is a misnomer really, but I don't have a better term
<zid> Arsen: Wanna know what happens when an Irish person makes fun of a ridiculous aspect of my country? I just take it and laugh with them. (I don't wanna get blown up with semtex).
<Arsen> good
<Arsen> both for the parenthesized and non-parenthesized part
<nikolar> zid: smart
<Ermine> my experience with pmb was less direct than yours
<nikolar> got to know how to read the room after all, right zid
<zid> oh btw, guess where the irish got all their semtex
<Ermine> zid: is that ira joke
<Arsen> zid: yugoslavia i hope
<Arsen> that'd be very funny
<zid> Arsen: That'd be funnier, sadly, americans had a whip round and donated it
<heat> Arsen: this has nothing to do with shrugging it off or not, the guy doesn't like your banter, you stop
<nikolar> zid: whaaat, i thought you kay and you ess of a were good alies
<nikolar> they'd never do that
<zid> The biggest financial supporter of the 'ra was americans
<Arsen> first good thing america ever did
<nikolar> never, you must be mistaken
<zid> kek
<zid> Arsen: Hey they're good at bombing brits, just look at all the wars we were on the same side in
<nikolar> kerk
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<poggers> hey, hey hey
<poggers> i'm not stupid because i'm amernican
<poggers> i'm just stupid
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<sortie> zid: Please file all complaints with root@irc.sortix.org
<Reinhilde> ‽
<zid> but I had a problem with the postmaster
<sortie> I haven't set up aliases like that
<poggers> waaaaaait a minute mister postman
<zid> the next like just howling, I can't type that
<zid> <noises>
<sortie> Okay I think postmaster works now
<sortie> People fluent in port 25 and netcat will know what I've done ;D
<poggers> do i look like i speak SMTP
<zid> 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 3EB3AFFFF80000228AA80
<poggers> i barely speak english
<zid> I do lol
<zid> I wonder if it's an open relay
<poggers> the smtp server at my first ISP was
<zid> : Relay access denied
<zid> :(
<poggers> imagine my shock when they got mad i was using to bounce from my postfix installation
<zid> Ok: queued as A05BAFFFF800002258140
<zid> Best email
<sortie> > From zid@irc.sortix.org Tue Apr 7 15:16:47 2026
<sortie> > Received: from zid (unknown [x.x.x.x])
<sortie> > by irc.sortix.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EB3AFFFF80000228AA80
<sortie> > for <postmaster>; Tue, 07 Apr 2026 15:16:33 +0000 (UTC)
<sortie> >
<sortie> > How do you do topics with telnet?
<sortie> you forgot a Subject and User-Agent. how rude
<zid> the 2nd email is better
<GeDaMo> User-Agent: zid
<sortie> > From root@irc.sortix.org Tue Apr 7 15:18:17 2026
<sortie> > Received: from zid (unknown [86.17.233.150]) by irc.sortix.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A05BAFFFF800002258140 for <root@irc.sortix.org>; Tue, 07 Apr 2026 15:17:47 +0000 (UTC)
<sortie> >
<sortie> > Stop emailing yourself
<sortie> hehehe totally there are no incoming rejection criteria on this email server. (It will not allow you to send email through it, however. It will crash.)
<zid> It doesn't crash, it says no relaying :(
<sortie> It also does reject that ;)
<sortie> But it would crash if you were on mynetworks
<zid> [16:17] <zid> : Relay access denied
<sortie> Defense in depth!
<zid> also, have you considered not emailing yourself
<sortie> Have you considered DMARC=
<sortie> ?
<zid> never
<zid> oh it really didn't like whatever I typed there
<zid> I did User-Agent: Smith and it disconnected me
<sortie> $ nc irc.sortix.org 25
<sortie> 220 irc.sortix.org ESMTP Postfix (Sortix)
<sortie> BUT YEAH. *I PORTED POSTFIX TO SORTIX*
<zid> When do I get my email
<sortie> < unknown[86.17.233.150]: User-Agent: Smith
<sortie> warning: non-SMTP command from unknown[86.17.233.150]: User-Agent: Smith
<sortie> > unknown[86.17.233.150]: 221 2.7.0 Error: I can break rules, too. Goodbye.
<zid> oh did I forget to DATA first
<zid> oops
<zid> why did it unknown me, I'd already helo'd
* sortie is tail -f 'ing all the logs to keep an eye on this
<sortie> It does say unknown for everyone for some reason
<sortie> It is unclear to me, since DNS does appear to work
<sortie> Note that I've put this on the internet even though it's barely working hahaha
<nikolar> oh? the dark arts of email?
<sortie> i am learning the arcane arts
<sortie> match_list_match: gmail.com: no match
<kof673> lucky_user@!kremvax!matrix!sortix!...!profit!
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<sortie> zid: what the heck did you do with that gmail
<zid> with that what
<zid> did you print it out
<sortie> > User-Agent: Smith
<sortie> > Hello
<sortie> hi!
<zid> what's wrong with that?
<sortie> That one is fine
<zid> You complained I had no user agent so I added one!
<sortie> But it looks like you sent an email from gmail and I'm not sure what happened to it
<zid> oh neat when did I do that
<zid> pastebin it :P
<sortie> root@irc.sortix.org /var/spool/mail # postqueue -p
<sortie> -Queue ID- --Size-- ----Arrival Time---- -Sender/Recipient-------
<sortie> zidsoft@gmail.com
<sortie> B172AFFFF8000022BD520 6047 Tue Apr 7 15:16:21 MAILER-DAEMON
<sortie> It looks like your email bounced
<sortie> i'm doxxing you btw, you sent all of that in cleartext to port 25 anyway
<zid> I sent
<zid> 'that root guy' 'is a right wrongun' to postmaster from gmail
<zid> 13 mins ago
<sortie> > unknown[86.17.233.150]: 555 5.5.4 Unsupported option: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA??
<sortie> In STMP nobody can hear you scream, internet person
<zid> kek that was also me
<heat> lol love it
<zid> Gotta check for trivial buffer overflows!
<zid> opensmtp had that bug once apparently
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<heat> sortie: the best part about packaging things is being responsible for their maintenance and security
<sortie> Yeah.
<sortie> It only scares me.
<heat> doubly fun when it comes to internet stuff
<heat> reminder that cyrus-sasl hasn't had a release in 4 years and i have to carry a bunch of patches to this effect
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<sortie> zid: https://paste.ahti.space/7cfecd.html ← Please accept my email.
<zid> are you getting SPAMHAUS@d
<zid> postermaster lol
<zid> ops
<sortie> :D
<sortie> What do you mean spamhaus'd?
<zid> this is why I ran my own email server for all of 7 seconds
<zid> google subscribes to every single email blacklist
<zid> "this is a linode ip, rejected"
<zid> "this is a residental Ip, rejected"
<sortie> Oh I know how to configure email properly
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<zid> "this domain is via godaddy but doesn't have 2fa enabled, rejected"
<sortie> I've been running my own email instrastructure for a couple years now
<zid> I got banned from freenode before now
<zid> because they also subscribed to some of those lists
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<zid> and it just randomly decided I was unfit
<sortie> I can email gmail with a perfect score
<sortie> Obviously I don't have MX, SPF, DMARC, etc. set up for this irc.sortix.org VM
<zid> mods are asleep, email pictures of ducks to sortie
<sortie> xD
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<sortie> Yeah postmaster@ -> root@ /etc/aliases works
<zid> base64 encoded image incoming
<zid> or it rehosts to google image servers, not sure which
<zid> we'll find out
<sortie> sorry somebody dumped a lot of base64 to my terminal while I was in the bathroom i'll be with you in a sec
<zid> I SAID, HELLO=
<sortie> I interpret your linebreaks bro
<zid> is that a threat
<sortie> \\r
<sortie> THERE. DO I HAVE TO SAY THE SECOND PART OR ARE YOU GONNA BEHAVE
<zid> sortie: so did you get 400k of base64 or d id it rehost and just put an img tag?
<sortie> # du -h root
<sortie> 625Kroot
<zid> nice
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<sortie> I think I might be the first osdev system to have a portfix port :D
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<sortie> Are you ever really, truly self-hosting if you don't have your own email infra
<zid> I could hack up an email server in 20 minutes, more people should do it
<zid> disregard ports
<zid> acquire cves
<sortie> I could hack your email server in 20 minutes
<zid> I bet I could write an email server that was secure in 20 minutes
<zid> it's when it takes 4 hours that it stops being secure, because you try to add FEATURES
<sortie> It's 17:50
<sortie> GO.
<zid> like buffers without limits
<zid> or accepting commands in any order
<sortie> you're still talking
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<zid> when everything is just char buf[64]; read(fd, 64, buf); it's a lot harder to have exploits :P
<sortie> zid will be removed from the channel in the case of failure
<zid> I'll remove you from your liver
<sortie> one of us has an email server and the other one has 19 minutes
<zid> One of us is about to be only a liver.
<zid> We can go out drinking
<sortie> honestly I'd have a beer with zid
<sortie> heat, you joining?
<zid> You're buying
<zid> with your posix money
<sortie> oh I owe heat more beer than is available
<sortie> some of us work for big posix
<zid> nikolar: you coming?
<nikolar> oh sortie is buying? yea definitely
<poggers> can i work for big posix too
<sortie> do you have experience with mom and pop posix?
<zid> does iceland have beer... can you brew moss?
<poggers> i do
<poggers> yes we have mossbjör
<zid> nice
<poggers> bjór
<zid> do all the reindeer like it
<zid> horses love stouts
<poggers> they love it
<sortie> hey mister footender can i have one stdout plesae
<poggers> the thing about mom and pop posix is that it's over for the little guy
<poggers> hah stdout
<poggers> PÖLSIX
<poggers> becuse öl means ale
<zid> sortie: I'm going to need a short while before you pick me up, I have a potato in the oven
<sortie> yeah sure
<sortie> here, 16 bits for you
<sortie> sign optional
<nikolar> damn all 16 bits?
<zid> chat is this read
<zid> real
<zid> sortie from big posix just gave me some bits
<zid> don't forget to like and subscribe
<sortie> don't use em all at once
<sortie> careful, those bits are gonna be floating by the time we're back from the foo
<zid> I am very parsimonious with my bits, don't worry
<sortie> chat why is smtpd crashing inside the code i blatantly stole from musl as a temporary hack
<nikolar> i think it might have something to do with stealing from musl as a temporary hack
<zid> No I th ink the problem is musl in general
<zid> if musl is so good why is its code crashing no matter how stolen it is
<sortie> okay soooo
<sortie> who mentioned the 500 mile email???
<zid> me
<zid> did I win, was that the problem, I live too far away
<sortie> guess who accidentally set the dns timeout to 0 by forgetting to initialize the config?
<zid> hahahahaha
<zid> literally the 500 mile email bug
<zid> well done
<sortie> yes because 0 timeout basically means one context switch so 10 ms
<sortie> that is probably why you were unknown
<nikolar> lol genious
<poggers> i'm more sanctimonious than parsimonious
<poggers> how dare you
<zid> poggers: I don't even like fruit
<poggers> i know, you're very meant o me
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<sortie> I am livid I had the 500 mile email bug
<zid> poggers: No I am mean to iceland, there's a difference, have you considered not bombing my cod
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<poggers> bombacod
<sortie> https://www.ibiblio.org/harris/500milemail.html ← Such a classic bug, everyone needs to know it
<zid> rasclart reindeer lover
<nikolar> sortie: it's hilarious that you managed to accidentally recreate it a day after it was mentioned
<nikolar> like, congrats
<zid> nikolar: to be fair, both bugs involved updating a machine to an insane operating system nobody uses
<poggers> well i would email 500 miles
<zid> sunos and sortix, both start with s!
<aoei> !
<aoei> sus
<nikolar> zid: fair
<zid> I am watching an italian couple eat cheese
<sortie> nikolar: technically the code was crashing on a zero division in some cases but yeah ;D
<nikolar> s!ortix and s!unos
<nikolar> sortie: close enough!
<nikolar> zid: wow, spicy
<aoei> zid: cheese :o
<nikolar> oh british cheese specifically
<sortie> # postqueue -p
<sortie> Mail queue is empty
<aoei> mmmmmmm british cheese
<sortie> Well that's reassuring
<aoei> like cheddar
<zid> The french get *so* mad that we have good cheese, it's the only reason we make it
<aoei> stilton ist auch gut
<poggers> i remember plying iwth sendmail and editing sendmail.cf and it still haunts me
<nikolar> zid: hey "spiting the french" is a good reason for anything reallčy
<sortie> > From root@test.sortix.org Tue Apr 7 16:10:54 2026
<sortie> > Received: from test.sortix.org (unknown [88.99.244.30]) by irc.sortix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E60FFFFF800001F3EA60 for <root@irc.sortix.org>; Tue, 07 Apr 2026 16:10:54 +0000 (UTC)
<sortie> > Received: by test.sortix.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id A9C9DFFFF80000AC9A280; Tue, 07 Apr 2026 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC)
<sortie> > Subject: This is the test server
<sortie> > From: root <root@test.sortix.org>
<sortie> >
<poggers> worst config system ever
<sortie> > hi
<sortie> fuck YES. I SENT AN EMAIL FROM SORTIX TO SORTIX
<sortie> across domains!
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<sortie> y'all know what this means
<sortie> zid is getting a reply
<zid> Oh it disconnected me :(
<zid> I upset it again
<heat> sortie: i can't join, conference season is coming up
<heat> i need my liver for that
<sortie> hmm I might not be good enough for gmail
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<nikolar> gmail sucks anyway
<zid> yea but it's reliable and free, sadly
<zid> It was also ELITE when I first started it
<zid> a few weeks into the closed beta
<nikolar> zid was first to all of the services
<zid> free services*
<zid> kek
<zid> important distinction
<nikolar> Lol
<zid> back before google were 'do no evil' and merely running adsense banners :(
<nikolar> Didn't you get Spotify as well
<nikolar> The good old times
<zid> ye I was one of the first people to use it
<zid> ludde hand invited me
<sortie> zid: Check your spam folder. Did you receive the bounce message I sent you?
<zid> no I didn't even get the bounce
<sortie> zid: It *just* got sent, now
<zid> zidsoft, Your Cloud Account has been locked on smtpDate. Your photos and videos will be removed!
<sortie> Message-Id: <20260407151621.B172AFFFF8000022BD520@irc.sortix.org>
<nikolar> I find it hilarious that google went out of their way to make "don't be evil" no be their motto
<nikolar> Like, "we're just evil now, deal with it"
<zid> They officially removed it which yea just hilarious
<zid> instead of just.. pretending, which is also evil
<zid> they were leike "ugys, this is important, WE ARE NOW EVIL OFFICIALLY"
<sortie> X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.2 required=5.0 tests=CUSTOM_DMARC_FAIL,DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DMARC_PASS,MISSING_HEADERS,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_NONE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0
<sortie> emails sent from sortix are not at all suspicious hahahaha
<zid> 4.2 suspiciouses
<sortie> The only reason gmail would show you that email is because you emailed the domain first
<nikolar> Exactly zid
<sortie> who the FUCK hacked my oven
<poggers> me
<zid> speaking of ovens
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<zid> I need to go see a man about a potato in a few minutes
<zid> don't let me forget
<sortie> ... apparently, after living here for 8 years or whatever, I accidentally turned on child mode on my oven and I couldn't figure out how to unlock it
<sortie> Thank you google search
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<nikolar> Lol
<nikolar> (zid: ado cried in that situation)
<zid> sortie is shopping at fucking Witches Inc.
<zid> and getting a special oven for cooking children like a grimm's tale
<aoei> P:
<aoei> yummy~
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<zid> k I have potato
<zid> thanks for reminding me guys
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<zid> living the latvian dream
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<zid> What are one potato say other potato?
<zid> Premise ridiculous. Who have two potato?
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<nikolar> The rich people, that's who
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<zid> Two Latvian look at cloud. One see potato. Other see imposible dream.
<zid> Is same cloud.
<poggers> the oven doesn't need wifi fuck you oven
<zid> One of my ovens has wifi
<zid> the one with the plastic door
<zid> but it only ever broadcasts EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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<kof673> not quite but ...i am trying something with iso loopback, then extract, to install freebsd to a gmirror ;D > curl https://postmarketos.org/images/image.img | dd of=/dev/sdb bs=4K oflag=direct
<kof673> you can fetch the individual .txz but i was writing to a raw disk for the iso ;D
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<kof673> that part worked so far..i believe wget even timed out and successfully continued later...writing to a raw disk file lol
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<heat> Arsen: i need your expert opinion, is it still true that clang is faster/less resource hungry than gcc
<Arsen> i fear so yes
<Arsen> I haven't measured in a while but I don't recall a change that might've caused significant improvement in that regard
<Arsen> so, grain of salt, but most likely yes
<heat> i've heard that clang has regressed a bit over time in that regard
<heat> but, yeah.
<Arsen> for equivalent workload I mean, thinlto vs real on god lto that gcc does obviously doesnt count
<Arsen> oh maybe, i definitely dont know what clang is doing
<heat> building LLVM with G++ is not super fun
<heat> there's a particular point in the build when it starts compiling the sema stuff and memory usage goes bonkers
<Arsen> f
<heat> i guess i could just skip compiling clang, but if i'm building LLVM I have to build clang and lld
<Arsen> why?
<heat> it's just wrong if i don't
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<nikolar> why are you building llvm smh
<heat> it's needed for mesa
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<nikolar> oh you're going into 3d acceleation
<nikolar> rip
<heat> software GL first with llvmpipe
<heat> but i'm building the amdgpu backend as well For The Future
<zid> ON GOD LTO
<zid> can I have that as a switch
<zid> -fwhole-ass-program -flto=on-god
<Arsen> yes actually
<Arsen> -flto -flto-partition=one
<Arsen> or on clang just -flto=notthin
<Arsen> whatever its called
<zid> no asses or on gods, how does that help
<Arsen> patches welcome
<zid> I doubt this one is
<zid> will gentoo take it
<heat> i think you can pull it off solely with a spec file?
<zid> ooh maybe
<Arsen> https://codeberg.org/emersion/gamja/pulls/217 this may be enough webdevving for a year
<Arsen> how in gods name did people write so much JS before typescript existed
<Arsen> heat: yes
<Arsen> that's litearlly doable
<zid> why && config.showTypingIndicators !== undefined) {
<zid> oh
<zid> I get it now
<Arsen> yeah undefined is fine
<Arsen> and i just realised thats redundant
<zid> php had a lot of this
<zid> if(ISSET($a) && $a == '4') crap
<Arsen> thanks for the code review kind stranger
<Arsen> see theres a
<Arsen> really really good library for this
<Arsen> shame its not usable here because js
<zid> C
<zid> doesn't have this problem either
<Arsen> yeah it has the problem of this somehow being even more verbose
<Arsen> its actually extremely good
<Arsen> i wish other languages had it
<Arsen> its so wasted on JS
<zid> I just have types, much easier
<zid> /* TODO(arsen): warning if newTypingState but no buf? does that even
<heat> Arsen: i hate to say it but it does look fun
<zid> good comment
<Arsen> heat: tweaking an irc client?
<Arsen> it was ngl
<Arsen> i should record a demo vid
<heat> javascripting some random bullshit
<heat> no C no shit crashes no memory races just vibes bro
<heat> vibing with tha javascriptz
<heat> "let me lock that folio so i can map it and get a stable reference to its mappign so i can unmap it and reclaim it" vs "haha javascropt"
<zid> Languages with no types are my favourite, PHP stuff classically having fun bugs like if the SHA1 of your password starts 0x0E0.. then it seeing it as the number 0 and allowing a "" password
<heat> my really big weakness with javascript is that I really can't async for shit
<heat> i just don't get the programming model, it's weird
<heat> the await stuff
<zid> I just have no idea where to put anything that doesn't make my "Everything should be encapsulated properly at compile time" brain get upset
<zid> return { members, joined, ...handleAsTypingMessage(buf) }; sorry javascript, what the fuck is this?
<zid> ... is a unary operator?
<heat> aha, nice
<heat> it's a way to expand an array
<heat> var arr = [1,2,3]; var arr2 = [...arr, 4,5,6];
<heat> arr2 is [1,2,3,4,5,6]
<Arsen> heat: its actually very good with JS ngl
<zid> is it multiple operators stacked, or do they literally have a ... operator
<Arsen> zid: yes its the spread operator
<zid> christ
<heat> it's a literal operator
<Arsen> its actually great
<Arsen> i love the spread operator
<Arsen> i love spreading
<heat> thank you arsen, very cool
<Arsen> heat: I was gonnas ay "it's very good with TS" and typod
<zid> In the same way ::->&(T) is cool
<Arsen> i added a demo video
<Arsen> so that you can see my glorious typing indicator
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<Arsen> heat: huh really, I though JS promised were among the more understandable
<Arsen> JS is missing synchronisation primitives
<Arsen> like, fully
<Arsen> but other than that
<heat> i'm just not used to it
<heat> the callback stuff makes more sense to me than doing await whatever.get();
<Arsen> those are extremely analogous
<Arsen> await just pauses the function until the callback is called
<Arsen> to the point where Promise is just a pair of fallbacks
<zid> I've wanted to write code like that all of twice so far
<zid> both times doing parsers
<Arsen> how did you get callbacks in a parser what
<Arsen> this is long
<Arsen> generators?
<zid> the first pair of boxes pretty much explains it
<zid> If you want code that consumes and code that produces to look idiomatic, but without involving a buffer, you can't
<Arsen> yeah, generators
<Arsen> I implemented those in gcc
<Arsen> you can use them with -std=c++23
<zid> tatham implements them with setjmp
<zid> like a god
<Arsen> so does systemd
<Arsen> actually no I lied
<Arsen> systemd uses ucontext
<zid> I use interprocedural goto
<zid> like a full on heimin
<Arsen> Dijkstra would put you down and it'd be justified
<zid> djikstra can suck it, he's not the boss of me
<zid> also dijkstra can too, for good measure
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<Arsen> heat: you around?
<heat> yes
<Arsen> i need my typing indicators tested
<Arsen> hmm it didnt work
<heat> sup b whats up
<Arsen> oh it did work
<heat> linux kerne linux kernel linxu
<Arsen> do you see mine
<heat> yes
<Arsen> hell yeah
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<heat> i'm watching LLVM builds go bye and this is awesome and kind of therapeutic
<heat> but the build is so stressful that it's kind of stressful as well
<heat> go by*
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<heat> aaaand it blew up
<heat> i guess i'm limiting concurrency
<geist> yeah it's annoying too since a lot of times the LTO portions of the build are what messes it all up
<geist> you want like -j8 for the builds and then one LTO at a time, or whatnot
<geist> some build systems can actually do that but i dont think cmake understands the bucket concept
<heat> i'm not even doing LTO :((
<zid> Have you considered using LTO anyway
<heat> i'm doing 16GB of RAM for 16 cores and that's apparently too little of a ratio for LLVM compilation
<heat> particularly on the libclang bits
<zid> 1GB/core for C 2-3GB/core for C++ depending on how templatey it is
<geist> yah
<heat> plus I don't have stable enough swap and I don't have an OOM killer
<heat> and I apparently have some obscure bug in my namei that gets a bad dentry when ->open() fails and doesn't realize it, and crashes
<heat> it's just kind of annoying
<heat> all of it
<heat> debugging "oh i fucked up there's no memory and this error path is wrong" is just a nightmare
<heat> and rpm really doesn't like incremental rebuilds. it's a shit sandwich really
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