<veqq>
beach: Tangentially, https://eyg.run/ has an intermediary AST format. I really like saving the AST and e.g. switching between implementations!
<ixelp>
EYG
<beach>
veqq: What do you mean by switching between implementations?
<veqq>
create an AST ... in an implementation independent way
<veqq>
You wrote above
<beach>
Well, I don't know eyg, so I don't know how many implementations it has. And if you are not referring to eyg implementations, I don't know what implementations you are referring to.
<beach>
Or maybe your phrase about eyg is independent of the one about switching between implementations?
<veqq>
Oh, I'm sorry. phoe wrote it, not you. But just above in the chat he wrote: The second part is also important to get across, i.e., that we can now create an AST and a HIR graph in an implementation-independent way.
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<veqq>
About CL and presumably SICL
<beach>
Oh, I see. Yes, the ASTs and also the HIR we now produce are not tied to any particular implementation.
<beach>
But of course, to change between Common Lisp implementations, each one would have to have a compiler that starts by reading the Iconoclast AST or the HIR.
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<veqq>
But it's SO AMAZING that we can start at this part now!
<veqq>
Really, great work
<beach>
Oh, thank you for saying so.
<beach>
It would be great if existing implementations would replace the first part of the compiler and instead use our ASTs and HIR, but I have absolutely not reason to believe that will ever happen, so the target audience would be creators of new Common Lisp implementations who want to save a lot of wor.
<beach>
work.
<beach>
s/not reason/no reason/ [coffee hasn't kicked in yet].
<veqq>
Tangentially, how much work in your estimation would be needed to change it (and idk, e.g. sbcl) to a scheme-like? (e.g. lisp-1 while keeping the efficiency, renaming and implementing the few funcs are easy) I'm curious how far the modularity gains could stretch
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<beach>
That's a tough question. Iconoclast uses the s-expression-syntax library that has a parser for each Common Lisp special form and each standard macro form. A new grammar would have to be created for Scheme.
<beach>
And then, new AST classes may have to be created. And builder methods that create those AST classes from what the s-expression-syntax library does have to be defined.
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<ari``>
Hello, this is ari this is my first time here.
<beach>
Hello ari`. Welcome!
<ari``>
Hi Beach, nice to hear from you!
<beach>
ari`: What brings you to #commonlisp?
<ari``>
I have just started using CL about 4 months ago and I wanted to connect, I started lookin at CLOG for frontent and dbotton mentioned this group
<ari``>
I have been an emacs user for awhile.
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<veqq>
Hey! Nice to see you
<veqq>
What kinds of things do you write?
<ari``>
I am just trying to write some web apps now.
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<ari``>
Small business applications.
<ari``>
how bout you guys?
<veqq>
Do you have any examples? I'm curious how it goes. dbutton helped me with packaging in the past, but I've never really done front end/needed displays.
<ari``>
I just started looking at it today. I spent the last week using parenscript. And although it is very nice to talk JS with sexp, i don't like thinking in JS.
<veqq>
In the past, I did e.g. mining software for clients, taking in a bunch of data and deciding on blasting plans. Nowadays, equity valuation. Mostly in a prologesque DSL
<ari``>
Very cool!
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<ari``>
is the prolgesque dsl written on top of CL?
<veqq>
Well, that's not true. I have a map based side project. I explored clojurescript and gleam for this, even learned tcl
<veqq>
Yes! It's on CL
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<ari``>
How did you find clojurescript? I am afraid that it would be too big at the end.
<veqq>
It started as CL, got some parts in Racket and Go, then replaced the Racket with CL. The Go code is all from data sources to the DB or from the DB to clients
<ari``>
I am teaching a course now Using "The Little Learner"
<ari``>
all racket based.
<ari``>
pretty fun stuff
<veqq>
Oh! Great book! There was a little reading group for it last year. A guy was porting it to Clojure
<veqq>
I'm curious how that teaching is going. Are students receptive etc.?
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<veqq>
I'd be surprised if clojurescript is bigger than what clog outputs. I had like 80kb
<ari``>
I started the semesester using PAIP, then moved to the little learner. I think the students are more receptive the more they get into it. The hard part for them, especially in CL, is setting up a new environmnet like emacs. Most are using modern ide
<veqq>
Side question, would either of you like an invite to lobste.rs ?
<ari``>
what is it?
<ari``>
rust?
<veqq>
clojurescript is hard to judge. I really like some of clojure's innovations and use them on personal projects (e.g. map macros) besides fset. The community is pretty good (m.b. they all use slack) but I mostly struggled with everything conceptually
<veqq>
Not knowing front end, most guides are useless because everything's in JS which I... don't really know either, or worse a specific js library. So it was painful to try to make gluecode between my janky clojurescript pages and random apis/iframes / weird mixin libraries
<veqq>
lobste.rs is like hackernews, but only tech no business
<ari``>
I was going to try clojure out, but felt like I'd rather spend some time with CL first for a long while. I do freaking love it
<veqq>
I'd love to hear more about this course! My efforts in the last years are basically marrying PAIP with the Little Learner. I mean, I found e.g. Annotated Logic and my fuzzy prolog is pretty nice, but my conceptual foundation isn't that great
<veqq>
I'm curious how you synthesize everything compared to by haphazard approach
<veqq>
But also they seem to have such different material, it's interesting that editors went from symbolics to learning
<ari``>
I am basically learning the material as I am teaching it. Only got thru upto and Including ELIZA in PAIP.
<ari``>
I think they are almost like completely different subjects.
<veqq>
Who are you teaching? What's your own background?
<ari``>
I would like to get up thru the prolog material. I the the "the little " series has a book on logic programming as well.
<veqq>
They aren't entirely unrelated, in production you'd use some sort of symbolic framework as guardrails and training also gains from this
<ari``>
yes, i have heard about using combination of GOFAI and DEEPLearning. Could be very useful.
<ari``>
I am teaching masters course at Brooklyn College.
<ari``>
When I say completely different I kind mean they are really coming from the problem at such different approaches and the underlying prinicples are very different.
<veqq>
Yes, the approaches have basically nothing in common. That's why I was a bit shocked that emacs could make you switch things around so much
<veqq>
How broad was the course description? And how'd you end up teaching it if you're learning along with the students?
<ari``>
I would love the invite to lobste.rs if you could pass along, that would be great!
<veqq>
miiniKanren like in the reasoned schemer is fairly different from prolog but generally does the same stuff. It's really cool with future applications to config automation etc. It's really baffling that people use yaml when... prolog exists. :D
<ari``>
The course was a very old course that was never updated. It really was meant as A GOFAI course. But when students sign up they expect to learn Machine Learning, because the name of the course is AI. In Our school, machine learning is more taught in a Data Science course.
<ari``>
They hadn't has someone to teach in several years so I offered.
<veqq>
IDK how much material you can give students etc. but I think it's possible to cover implementation in 1 class, but... the possibilities for using an implementation stretch across many courses!
<veqq>
pm me your email, for the invite (the accounts are attatched to an email address)
<ari``>
When you say implementation do you mean SBCL + emacs?
<veqq>
I mean an implementation on minikanren
<ari``>
Many students today are so tied to their IDE's and 99% don't even use vim.
<veqq>
or prolog, even, potentially (the fundamental idea is pretty simple magic)
<ari``>
I would love to hit the prolog stuff from PAIP.
<ari``>
Original intention was to stay on PAIP but I felt the students wanted to move onto machine learning
<ari``>
I am pretty flexible.
<ari``>
veqq, i Have to run, but it has been super nice chatting with you! Hope to speak again.
<veqq>
Likewise!
<veqq>
Sweet dreams!
<ari``>
you too! where are you btw?
<veqq>
Syracuse atm
<ari``>
ny?
<veqq>
Yes
<ari``>
nice!
<ari``>
I'm in brooklyn
<ari``>
hope to speak again sometime!
<veqq>
I briefly worked/lived there a few years ago
<ari``>
GN!
<veqq>
Feel free to return!
<ari``>
see you soon!
<ari``>
exit
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<fengshaun>
If I want to break up my project into libraries and the domain specific parts, is the convention "lib/" or "vendor/" or something else?
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<fengshaun>
I have "src/" that contains everything so far, but parts of my code can be independently used
<fengshaun>
looking for convention on file and directory structure
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<veqq>
fengshaun: Itdepends, of course
<veqq>
asdf? People even disagree on a package per file or not
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<veqq>
like /lib/project-name/src seemspointless to me, but I've seen it!
<ixelp>
Quickproject - create a Common Lisp project skeleton
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<veqq>
A big complication is that most (old) discussions are very OOP and I don't ...grok OOP. But they e.g. spend more time on how to arrange classes in a file than what to do with the files.
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<beach>
veqq: You must be referring to class-based object-oriented programming, as opposed to CLOS, yes?
<veqq>
Yes. As an example though, I mean e.g. with main an condition classes as separate items, but funcs as a single point :D
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<ari`>
good morning
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<wbooze>
morning
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<beach>
Hello wbooze.
<wbooze>
hello beach!
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<wbooze>
oh i must log out of windows, because docker installation demands it
<wbooze>
oh man
<wbooze>
brb
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<wbooze>
hmm, the display size/resolution changed on relogin, so i had to reboot instead...
<wbooze>
the VM
<wbooze>
seems it had to do some merging FS wise
<wbooze>
hmm i also installed steam and steam updated after reboot, not sure if it's feasible to use it, i mean i seldom play, just for testing the VM mostly
<wbooze>
heh
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<zablozki>
Good Morning
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<beach>
Hello zablozki.
<zablozki>
GM beach
<beach>
zablozki: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<zablozki>
Yes joined last nite.
<beach>
Great! Welcome!
<zablozki>
Thanks!!
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<beach>
zablozki: You never answered my question, but never mind. If you are new to Common Lisp, I recommend #clschool which exists precisely to answer (often relatively basic) questions about the language and its implementation.