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<jasom>
Is method redefinition not well-defined by the standard? I noticed that SBCL warns when I do this.
<jasom>
" If the generic function already has a method that agrees with the method being defined on parameter specializers and qualifiers, defmethod replaces the existing method with the one now being defined. For a definition of agreement in this context. see Section 7.6.3 (Agreement on Parameter Specializers and Qualifiers)." So anyone know why sbcl WARNs this?
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<decweb>
need to post an example, I redefine generics all the time without issue.
<decweb>
There's something you've changed from one definition to the next that is probably causing the problem.
<jasom>
Put this in a file that is part of an ASDF system that :depends-on "yason" then (asdf:load) the system: (defmethod yason:encode ((object (eql nil)) &optional (stream yason::*json-output*)) (write-string "false" stream) object)
<jasom>
I get "WARNING: redefining YASON:ENCODE (#<SB-MOP:EQL-SPECIALIZER NIL>) in DEFMETHOD"
<decweb>
Without consulting the spec and not being an expert at all, I'm thinking &optional and &key parameters do not accept defaults on generic methods, but perhaps I'm just forgetting
<decweb>
Does it need to be EQL 'NIL? no idea
<gilberth>
All of that is a red herring.
<decweb>
You might use (object null) as well
<jasom>
From the specialized-lambda-list that's fine: &key{var | ({var | (keywordvar)} [initform [supplied-p-parameter] ])}
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<jasom>
gilberth: do you know the answer or just that decweb's suggestions aren't it?
<_death>
I can imagine one would like to know when redefining a method..
<gilberth>
"A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file."
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<gilberth>
And this is why c-c c-c doesn't work reliably with SBCL, but c-c c-k is ok.
<jasom>
gilberth: I didn't relized that "named function" included methods
<gilberth>
A generic function is a function as well. And I'm sure that when you ask an SBCL they count replacing a method as redefining here. But you would need to ask them.
<gilberth>
* an SBCL guy
<_death>
(it's a style warning)
<decweb>
If I put (defmethod encode ((object (eql nil)) &optional (stream *standard-output*)) (write-string "false" stream) object) in a file and C-C it repeatedly, I get no warnings after the first
<jasom>
_death: if it were a style warning I wouldn't have been concerned; it's a warning
<decweb>
If I do it from the repl, I get warnings every time.
<decweb>
C-c C-c that is, works fine in slime
<decweb>
on this example
<jasom>
decweb: that's entirely consistent with gilberth's description of why
<decweb>
Yes, just validating
<decweb>
So it's sensitive to file context.
<_death>
jason: (subtypep 'sb-kernel:redefinition-with-defmethod 'style-warning) => t
<gilberth>
decweb: c-c c-c will bite you eventually. At least with DEFUN. Been there, more than once, cost be quite a bit of hair.
<jasom>
_death: nevertheless it prints "WARNING: redefining YASON:ENCODE (#<SB-MOP:EQL-SPECIALIZER NIL>) in DEFMETHOD"
<jasom>
SBCL 2.4.10
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<jasom>
I guess I need to get off my butt and submit a PR for allowing customizing the encode type of nil; YASON already has customization for *inputs* of null/false so having outputs as well makes sense.
<decweb>
I haven't had much problem with C-c C-c vs C-c C-k for individual functions, but if you've got #'fun references to it hanging around, time to recompile more than just the function being redefined.
<jasom>
decweb: compiler optimizations can break you in the future then; sbcl could e.g. start inlining small functions defined in the same file and be within spec.
<decweb>
uncle, uncle, happy to recompile more :-)
<jasom>
You also can get less good style-warnings for some classes of mistakes
<decweb>
When I'm really stumped I reload the system with :FORCE, and if I'm still stumped, blow away cached fasls.
<decweb>
Happily SBCL hasn't messed with my mind much because I'm a casual user rarely doing fancy things.
<jasom>
I default to C-c C-k and use C-c C-c to get slime to pickup new definitions for completion and/or indentation (when I'm in the middle of code-entry so C-c C-k will fail)
<decweb>
Meanwhle, good stuff to know, appreciated.
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<jasom>
gilberth: Thanks for the help
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<decweb>
Re: nil, usually if I want to specialize on nil I use NULL as a type. Is (EQL NIL) preferred?
<decweb>
I haven't tried to determine if one would be faster than the other.
<jasom>
TIL that NULL is a class (not just a type). (EQL NIL) will be chosen over NULL since EQL specializers precede all other specializers
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<_death>
jasom: it prints as WARNING because warn is used, rather than sb-int:style-warn.. cosmetic
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<jasom>
_death: so that's why ASDF completes
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<beach>
SBCL seems to warn only when the second definition is a different file from the first one.
<beach>
It seems reasonable to me to give some indication then. But perhaps not a warning.
<jasom>
beach: apparently it's a style-warning that is printed as WARNING
<beach>
I have (DEBUG 3) in my .sbclrc, and I think SBCL does not inline then, nor does it use all the liberties that the standard allows with function in a compilation unit. So C-c C-c should always work then.
<beach>
jasom: I see.
<beach>
I really don't understand why (DEBUG 3) is not the default.
<jasom>
beach: Is it a lot slower than (DEBUG 1)?
<jasom>
I do like being able to inspect all locals in sldb which needs (DEBUG 3)
<beach>
I have no idea because I always use (DEBUG 3) so I can't compare.
<fosskers>
I usually only turn on (debug 3) if I need that extra view into the locals.
<fosskers>
Most of the time (debug 1) seems to be sufficient.
<aeth>
I usually just print debug with FORMAT, which is really handy because it can even handle lists and things that can be turned into lists. So I've personally never really needed DEBUG 3
<aeth>
Inserting a FORMAT followed by a BREAK is almost always enough to see what's going on.
<jackdaniel>
in not-so-small programs you often have a deeply nested structure as a parameter -- "printing" is not enough for inspecting it
<aeth>
I suppose inlining can still sometimes get in the way by making the error show up in the wrong place, and by making inserting a FORMAT there not register without a full ASDF reload instead of a simple local recompile
<fosskers>
aeth: consider also Sly Stickers.
<fosskers>
I've never print-debugged once since starting CL thanks to those.
<aeth>
jackdaniel: Well, the drawback is that I usually have to define a print-object, if it's simple enough, or a separate print function if it would be far too verbose to normally print.
<aeth>
a print-object method, I mean
<jackdaniel>
I guess it is a "you do you" kind of a situation. I don't imagine printing 10s of records in the output record history to simply realise, that I must also to inspect one of them
<aeth>
Also, it seems to scale. I have > 20,000 lines of code in my largest project.
<aeth>
Very, very dense code that generates quite a bit.
<jackdaniel>
forgive being ironic, but surely around ~10,000 is print-object methods ,)
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<aeth>
I actually only define 18.
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<aeth>
Assuming a length of 10 lines each, that would be 180 lines
<aeth>
I probably should define more, though
<aeth>
I will say that my flavor of print-debugging kind of depends on me controlling most of my stack, since I know where to look and I know where to insert code and I'm confident about inserting code (although M-. would mostly work if you remember to remove it later)
<jackdaniel>
I'm not saying that print debugging is a bad approach, only that it is not always sufficient (or, if you like, sometimes it is inadequate)
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<aeth>
I think you have to write with it in mind, but it mostly lines up with writing with the REPL in mind, too.
<aeth>
It's really annoying when the problem can't be printed because it's a bunch of arbitrary, constantly-updating single-floats that represent in-engine stuff, though. Once I just drew cubes at these locations.
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<jackdaniel>
apparently this tool is implemented partially in Common Lisp: https://osh-autodoc.org/ ; not sure whether it was mentioend here before. a tool that generates assembly manuals from CAD specifications
<ixelp>
OSH Automated Documentation
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<fengshaun>
what's a canonical way to return a boolean or an error with a message? the errors are not 'exceptional', so a condition wouldn't logically fit. I'm thinking (values bool string) may be it?
<jackdaniel>
how about (valuea (make-condition 'non-exc :bool bool :strimg string) ?
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<fengshaun>
valuea?
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<jackdaniel>
im typing on phone
<jackdaniel>
typo
<fengshaun>
oh
<fengshaun>
yea, could use a condition and add the message
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<scymtym>
regrading SBCL's method redefinition warning: that warning is signaled only if the method redefinition is "interesting" which means if the old and the new method are defined in different files
<scymtym>
this seems to have been the case with the original question since one method seems to have come from the yason system and the other from code using that system. in such a scenario, the warning seems justified to me since it is likely that the user is overwriting behavior that someone else defined. there can be false positives, of course, when restructuring code
<scymtym>
i see beach mentioned this. sorry for the noise
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<inline>
sheet
<inline>
can't get the clocc clhs-doc to connect to the hyperspec remotely
<inline>
no idea why
<inline>
i get a 400 Bad Request always
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<inline>
so it connects, but the request is malformed
<inline>
i don't get why
<inline>
i can read a local HyperSpec with it just fine, but then it's another :file handler which does that
<inline>
i already fixed it to accept https links (adjusted the port too) but still no idea, why my request is malformed
<inline>
hmmmm
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<|3b|>
one nice thing about print debugging is that it has history, so for things that take a while (or aren't deterministic) you can more easily trace back a problem than if you had to restart to hit a breakpoint at each earlier stage of tracing the problem
<|3b|>
(assuming you managed to print out enough relevant things of course)
<|3b|>
does depend a lot on domain though, other types of things are nicer to just poke around in inspector or whatever
<wbooze>
i previousyl defined a url-open-https where i segregated the https stuff, but now it's all in one again
<wbooze>
afaik CRLF stuff is already handled in url.lisp in clocc/cllib/url.lisp
<wbooze>
so that's not it either i think, i tried with LF too it's the same
<wbooze>
a simple curl gives me the resource but in clocc/sbcl it just fails
<wbooze>
hmmmm
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<|3b|>
CRLF is specified in HTTP, so changing that should make things worse
<|3b|>
no idea what's wrong though, even a complex curl to match headers and order works
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<wbooze>
right, i couldn't discover anything wrong yet, however when i change that list* to list i get a timeout instead (because suddenly there's a nil at the end which is not a vector)
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