<teepee>
well, if nobody cares to help and it's only me, I probably will stop at some point
<teepee>
I still think it's a good thing to have
<teepee>
but if everyone is just waiting for *me
<teepee>
*me* to do all the work, that's not happening
<stealth_>
right now i have to add the project into site-package and edit that(which is kind of pain), i can also do `import sys; sys.path.insert(0, '.')` now i can include projects
<stealth_>
i am helping by giving you input on errors and ideas to improve implementation ;)
<teepee>
that's very helpful, but we also need to find someone who actually help with getting that stuf implemented
<teepee>
and I very much believe we need to get venv working to make some sort of official builds
<teepee>
we'll see, I do hope there is someone out there who may decide to help with getting the python env working well
<stealth_>
if you guys are well funded you can hire ppl as well.
<teepee>
we are well funded for running the servers and services
<teepee>
for people it's not even close
<teepee>
maybe one day per month or so
<InPhase>
paul__: I was also that math-skilled weirdo at 13. It's good for them to have engaging challenge tasks like this sort of thing. :)
<stealth_>
well there are lots of big companies that use openscad right? maybe you guys need a donation drive or something. make sure core devs get paid and have extra $ to add features.
<teepee>
no
<teepee>
there's two places where I know openscad is used in a slightly bigger environment and that's thingivers and makerworld
<stealth_>
i figure lots of cnc work shops would be using openscad.
<teepee>
I doubt that, but I don't know. I have no numbers whatsoever on that
<InPhase>
paul__: I had the fun life adventure of being a computer nerd before most people really knew what computers were, or had even really touched one. Over the course of my life it went from "Hahah, Urkel!" to "Oh wow, so you could like make all of my stuff work?" ;)
<teepee>
but I would assume from mailing list and so on, that CNC is not using openscad unless a strange customer asks and most of the time they deny
<stealth_>
teepee, i remember talking to inphase a while ago saying if openscad was more user-friendly you would have the whole youtube dyi community jumping in
<teepee>
not sure what kind of user friendly part would make that huge of a difference
<stealth_>
well a project can't just have developers, you need other mindset ppl as well
<stealth_>
like click and build tool-set like graphic software.
<InPhase>
stealth_: Well we have somewhere over a million users, it seems.
<InPhase>
stealth_: It's not in niche range.
<InPhase>
The total is hard to track, since we don't collect licensing fees, but it appears to be over that.
<stealth_>
o, there was this new graphic tools https://graphite.rs/ see how they are doing their funding ideas.
<stealth_>
InPhase, well there is not much $ for development so maybe there needs to be.
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<InPhase>
stealth_: It is however hard to figure out corporate usage. There do not appear to be many if any fulltime openscad design making positions out there. But there are certainly many companies where people prototype things in openscad. Just presumably almost always for 3D printing.
<InPhase>
stealth_: This just seems to be things people do on the side as part of other positions. I don't see signs of making openscad designs being a common fulltime job.
<stealth_>
InPhase, ya, i am currently using openscad for 3d printing prototypes so thats a HUGE market, you guys really need to get in there..
<InPhase>
We are in there. :)
<InPhase>
OpenSCAD is on almost every shortlist of how to make 3D printing designs.
<stealth_>
as in making $ for devs and improvements.
<InPhase>
It was on these lists since 2016 or so, when I first found it.
<InPhase>
I just happened to be filtering through the short lists for an approach that was prominent, open source, and programmatic (since I understood before starting that this was the way to go). There are now competitors for open source and programmatic, but OpenSCAD remains the most prominent.
<InPhase>
Getting funding is however far more challenging than being prominent. The list of open source projects that are critically utilized but have no funding is quite long and distinguished.
<stealth_>
well i still think it needs to be click build system as well as coding(current) style
<InPhase>
Not on the agenda. This is the wrong mindset for it, and incompatible with the design philosophy.
<stealth_>
well you need that kind of mindset to get more users that will spend $
<InPhase>
The two do not mesh well together.
<InPhase>
They start from different ends of the problem.
<stealth_>
well there is a project out there that took openscad coding idea and made it click build.. and they are very well funded!
<InPhase>
Mapping between the two would require nothing short of a competent AI that can do OpenSCAD.
<stealth_>
there is coding and you can draw manually as well,
<stealth_>
you can see it in the animation on their home page.
<InPhase>
stealth_: I see no manual drawing in their animation.
<teepee>
well, if you have a couple of millions vc funding, you can do some stuff
<InPhase>
If this is kitty.cad rebranded, it sure looked like a lot of fluff the first time around.
<stealth_>
well ya their company is doing it as sas, but the point is they are funded and they make $ openscad can clearly do that and more!
<InPhase>
Oh yes, it is kittycad.
<teepee>
nobody does vc funding for opensource
<teepee>
that is just not a thing
<InPhase>
stealth_: Clearly how? I don't see the drawing you're speaking of.
<teepee>
they want their money back
<stealth_>
InPhase, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7USuyXL0q6Y you can listen to the interview they even mention openscad and the person says you can manually draw as well.
<othx>
stealth_ linked to YouTube video "Writing a CAD Language in Rust (with Adam Chalmers)" => 1 IRC mentions
<InPhase>
stealth_: Does this 82 minute video include a demonstration of the way code is altered when you click on the model and alter things?
<teepee>
commercial stuff is fine
<stealth_>
InPhase, well its more of a talk, not really a showcase of the software in action
<teepee>
but I do like that openscad can be used in education *for free* everywhere without even asking for any permission
<InPhase>
stealth_: That's the entire question.
<stealth_>
if you look at project like https://krita.org/en/ they are well funded as well, enough to pay their devs
<teepee>
not that we still get strange questions from random IT people
<InPhase>
stealth_: Obviously people have thought about it before. It's specifically not done because it's pretty obvious it will produce absolute garbage.
<stealth_>
InPhase, well you can have simple shapes be created, or create object thats already done be created
<InPhase>
stealth_: There are limited special cases where you can make the garbage outcome not happen. But in general cases? The garbage would be very hard to avoid, and require something at the level of intelligence to avoid.
<InPhase>
stealth_: Something needs to map between the two very different ends that these start from.
<teepee>
they show $2742 monthly contributions
<teepee>
that is not going to fund a team in EU at least
<teepee>
it's not bad, but not nearly enough even for one person full time here
<stealth_>
well something is better than nothing.
<InPhase>
OpenSCAD would need at least half a million a year to setup a small paid core.
<teepee>
something does not help if you can't pay your rent
<teepee>
I'd be fine with kintel full time :)
<stealth_>
kintel?
<InPhase>
Kintel fulltime would be a great boost.
<stealth_>
well right now you are making $0 right?
<teepee>
I have no exact numbers, but I would guess maybe $100 per month or so
<InPhase>
stealth_: There is a donation account accumulating. It's enough to pay for some servers and such, but not on the right scale for labor.
<InPhase>
We've discussed tapping some for a package server system.
<teepee>
let me check what opencollective says
<stealth_>
well you can't be totally humble and accept someone to give you $, you need to be a bit proactive, like even something as simple as adding a donation button on the software.
<teepee>
well, that reminds me, I should actually hand over the invoices, so far I'm paying for that
<InPhase>
teepee: Invoices for the site?
<InPhase>
Those should definitely be covered by the donation system.
<stealth_>
i like how linuxmint shows their donations https://linuxmint.com/donors.php this give user a perspective to whats actually happens with the $
<stealth_>
InPhase, well showing names/country of ppl that donative can motivate people into donating.
<InPhase>
stealth_: There's a price to begging for money if it is too in-your-face.
<stealth_>
they should also get some value!
<teepee>
ah, there it says: estimated anual budget: $5,315.63 USD
<teepee>
but that might still be skewed by the big transfer kintel made putting the money in from previous donations
<InPhase>
It'd be hard to hit that level of expenses unless we're overpaying for AWS or something. :)
<stealth_>
InPhase, no begging, just do what linuxmint ppl do, that should be enough and add a button on the software.
<InPhase>
Or if some actually went to a bit of labor, and then it would be easy.
<stealth_>
why are you guys using aws?
<teepee>
I think real expenses are currently about $35 or so per month
<stealth_>
that wasting $
<teepee>
we don'T
<stealth_>
alright.
<InPhase>
stealth_: We're not. I'm saying that would be the only way to do it on server costs.
<InPhase>
Because AWS just balloons costs rapidly.
<teepee>
I think right now the only two things are the hosted mailing list, the domain stuff and the file server
<InPhase>
However a package service might eventually need slightly more expensive hosting.
<teepee>
file server being netcup here in germany for a reasonable price I think
<InPhase>
Sometimes a service like that would end up needing to scale.
<stealth_>
even zig community got free aws i think for a year it was costing like $1,500 and the free $ ran out and now they are spending $10/month and its same level of usage.
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<kintel>
Did someone rub my lamp?
<kintel>
scroll,scroll,scroll,scroll. man so much chatter
<kintel>
My 2c (perhaps unpopular but it has some truth to it and everyone running dev teams know it): Paying for a full-time dev position, unless you hire the existing lead first, will likely generate another full-time position worth of work doing design, reviews etc. It very hard to fund software (open source or not) without funding a self-sufficient team.
<kintel>
But as someone pointed out, it's always possible to be more proactive at trying, and aiming for something sustainable.
<kintel>
modulo being in fundraising more taking away valuable (and fun) dev time.
<stealth_>
if you can provide more robust software that can compete with autocad could also gofundme and hire openscad developer for that software, which would also improve openscad itself.
<stealth_>
there are many software out there hat has free version and enterprise version that funds the free version.
<kintel>
Yeah, tons of opportunities if you keep the power features closed source. We kind of started out in the opposite end; revolt against closed source SW since it's a pain in the ass ;)
<stealth_>
a free version of sketchup + openscad would be very popular.
<kintel>
But believe me, I've thought about this a lot - I even launched a startup, pitched to investors, got public funding etc. to build something proprietary in the hopes of balancing the forces and make OpenSCAD fundable from the insite
<stealth_>
what happened?
<kintel>
But the super powers needed to make people (or companies) part with their hard earned cash is hard to come by
<kintel>
Basically, you need to attract a team with the right skills, pay them nothing, and offering them something very attractive in the future, and then do the mad dash
<J25k95>
stealth_ you can have freecad with openscad - but i think openscad is just a bit out of reach for the usual user.
<kintel>
"very attractive" meaning something followed by more than 7 zeroes : /
<stealth_>
J25k95, ya, average users are not going to use openscad not matter how easy it is cause they think in terms of click, drag, more visually
<stealth_>
why autocad, sketchup, ... are popular.
<J25k95>
i assume wie will see AI CAD very soon
<stealth_>
i saw this this other day https://graphite.rs/ there is still a need for good graphic software, its just needs to give ppl what they want and more.
<stealth_>
same goes for 3d software.
<kintel>
Anyway, the goals isn't winning, it's creating value and making it sustainable. If someone can blow OpenSCAD out of the water with a better OSS software, it's a win. If it's built by the current OpenSCAD team, even better :) OpenSCAD will eventually die, but we're still going strong
<stealth_>
openscad already have wasm support but it isn't provide to user where they can just include in their site, maybe scientific community will jump on board with that feature.
<J25k95>
i sometimes wish openSCAD had a 2D mode (not 2D in 3D) - currently you need to export svg color it and render with something external
<othx>
stealth_ linked to YouTube video "Graphite: Image Editing as a Syntax Tree (with Keavon Chambers & Dennis Kobert)" => 1 IRC mentions
<kintel>
Graphite looks impressive. 5 years of coding already
<stealth_>
sometimes you need to invest time/effort into something for you to see an return.
<stealth_>
i have also see many that sellout at the end to make the $ and never see them again.
<kintel>
Heh, let me know if you want to launch a YouTube series on OpenSCAD ;)
<kintel>
The more people in charge the better. I feel the current team is solidly planted in the joy-is-writing-code camp :)
<stealth_>
i already have many projects i am working on, why i am just trying to give you guys a push so you don't give up :p
<kintel>
yup, understood - that's what most people's situation is like
<stealth_>
if you can make lets say a car using openscad, and it accounts for every single part of that car, and final render, that software companies would invest in.
<J25k95>
So people get happy by watching youtube creating openSCAD without the need to do SCAD by themselfs
<stealth_>
i think openscad has huge potential if you can just grasp it.
<J25k95>
there will always be just 10% of people being able to use hat. But with the customizer we already reach many more
<stealth_>
there are lots of users on youtube that want to create 3d modelling for 3d printing but they don't really know how! if openscad can make that process easy, there is a huge market there.
<kintel>
stealth_ Just drop your projects, do one pilot OpenSCAD YouTube show, harvest the fame, and you'll forget you had other projects ;)
<J25k95>
Makerworld already offers some assistive tools in their creation lab for those.
<stealth_>
kintel, lol, its something i can't get away with
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<kintel>
Anyway, bedtime. later..
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<stealth_>
night
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<Guest1>
creame un STL. de una figura de acción que salgamos mi mujer mi hijo y yo juntos estilo funko pop pero personalizados con nuestras características y rasgos
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<teepee>
looks like we may need to find out how well moving mastodon accounts across instances works
<InPhase>
teepee: Speaking of mastodon, can I get an invite to the fosstodon platform? That one seems like the most appropriate one for me to join through.
<InPhase>
I've been thinking I should consider joining some of these not-a-cesspool communities. Mastodon has demonstrated to me that it can be a decent place for meritorious content being shared.
<teepee>
well, fosstodon is exactly the problem right now :)
<InPhase>
... Doesn't fosstodon have an explicit CoC against that?
<InPhase>
Well someone might be addressing this. The posts linked appear to have been subject to deletion. And it looks like there's no longer even a @carrotcypher on fosstodon
<InPhase>
Did this person just delete their entire online presence?
<InPhase>
Perhaps this was resolved the way it was supposed to be? How would one find the list of current moderators of a mastodon server?
<teepee>
and that's the main reason for me to believe there's no reason to stick around
<teepee>
even if that person now finally goes, this is not the reaction I would want to see
<teepee>
something like "we are looking into this" fine
<teepee>
but: "nope, can't see anything wrong here" is not promising
<InPhase>
Did you read the posts of carrotcypher before they were deleted?
<InPhase>
Coming into this late, it's a weirdly hard to track story with lots of people calling this guy a nazi, and none of the original evidence being visible. :)
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<InPhase>
In the past I've seen both versions of this story in other instances, with some cases where quickly offended people misinterpreted someone, and cases where the person was being very outrageous. Hard to tell which story path we're looking at here with that clean-up.
<InPhase>
I don't know any of the people making claims.
<teepee>
having all the comments tossed on *different* platforms including reddit is a red flag though
<InPhase>
I think carrotcypher has deleted every other account online associated with that identity. github is also gone.
<teepee>
yep
<InPhase>
So really the only question for fosstodon is whether that one post by Mike of saying he's not doing anything problematic as a fosstodon mod, is a problem.
<InPhase>
The "Nazi bar" theory holds for the real bad apples. It's not the way to live for people who just have some political views I disagree with.
<InPhase>
There's a whole public discourse and person-to-person discourse strategy for engagement with people who just have different views. And I just don't know which scenario this controversy is in. :)
<InPhase>
Also, ironic side-note, before I asked for that invite, I had previously reviewed fosstodon's CoC and concluded by reading it that it would be a stable place to anchor oneself that should remain immune to controversies and problems like this. :)
<InPhase>
What I would most prefer is a mastodon placement that can stay stable and not need to migrate.
<InPhase>
It looks like his starting position was basically just, "What do we have to do with what happens on reddit?"
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<InPhase>
I guess it's fair to give people a little time to figure out the right response to these sorts of situations with a bit of cautious deliberation rather than rapid reaction.
<InPhase>
I'm also prone to resolving things cautiously and deliberately in places I run. This is often the superior choice when dealing with things that are reversible (like moderation).
<teepee>
in theory yes. in light of what's going on in the world right now, my patience especially with that type of stuff is getting very short
<InPhase>
Yeah.
<teepee>
fwiw floss.social account is approved and we will be in good company there, KDE is using that instance too so that was the main thing vouching in my book
<teepee>
in the end the account is not a huge thing, it's not like we would be hugely invested in this being fosstodon
<InPhase>
That one seems much smaller.
<InPhase>
Does the size of the server matter for anything?
<teepee>
not much, it affects some visibility
<teepee>
but as long as you actually follow accounts, I believe it does not matter
<InPhase>
But it would impact the number of people who would see the openscad posts there?
<InPhase>
Like within-server gets a higher visibility?