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<aeth>
simply making a link in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ usually works, except in CCL; this is annoying because I don't like being told where to put my actual git cloned directories, but it's never going to be the general advice because it doesn't work on CCL
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<|3b|>
aeth: ASDF has lots of ways to configure some other place to clone things, and ql has *local-project-directories* if asdf config is too complicated and working like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ is good enough
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<jdz>
I'm quite sure Quicklisp's local-projects works just fine for me with CCL.
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<jdz>
Yep, no issues at all.
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<jackdaniel>
sometimes if you don't restart the image in between, it is worth calling to ql:register-local-projects
<jackdaniel>
also ccl has a problem with following symlinks, so unless other implementation called register-local-projects, the symblink to the system will be silently ignored
<jackdaniel>
s/blink/link/
<jackdaniel>
or maybe it is asdf that has problem with making ccl do what is desired? who knows
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<g-gundam>
New to CL. Twice now, I've run into README's that claim a library can be installed via quicklisp, but it doesn't work, and later I find that the library is not listed in https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html . I end up manually cloning it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and go on my way, but I still wonder: why are these libraries are not in the "official" list?
<ixelp>
GitHub - ak-coram/cl-frugal-uuid: Common Lisp UUID library with zero dependencies
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<beach>
g-gundam: Quicklisp is maintained by Xach, so if some library is not available in Quicklisp it is because Xach didn't put it there. It might be that it didn't fulfill the criteria required, or that the author didn't ask for it to be included.
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<g-gundam>
beach: ...so this kind of thing happens regularly?
<beach>
It is the norm unless 1. the author asks Xach to include the library, and 2. Xach determines that the quality of the library is good enough for it to be included.
<semz>
since QL updates somewhat slowly, it's also possible that the author did request his lib be put in and preemptively put the installation instructions in before it actually got included
<beach>
Right, there is the time factor too.
<g-gundam>
OK, I'll just set my expectations accordingly. It was just kinda surprising.
<g-gundam>
(thanks)
<beach>
Why was it surprising?
<semz>
fwiw I can't say I've run into this often, but I'm very conservative about dependencies too
<g-gundam>
Coming from other languages, I don't think I've had this much trouble installing libraries.
<semz>
There is (was?) also Ultralisp whose gimmick is basically all about frequent releases iirc
<jackdaniel>
I can only say that using pip and a dependency hell is an atracious endavour. I think that the issue is intrinsic to having many dependencies
<beach>
Perhaps that means that the libraries in those other languages are not screened the way Xach screens the ones included in Quicklisp.
<jackdaniel>
(pip is a package manager for python)
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<beach>
g-gundam: So are you saying that, as soon as a library is created by just about anyone, it is automatically included in the "package manager" of the language that you used before?
<g-gundam>
beach: Usually, I can trust the README at its word. If it says it's installable via the language's packaging system, it almost always has been. I can't even think of the last time that wasn't the case until now.
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<semz>
beach: a lot of language-specific package managers (or at least those of some very popular languages) just require you to make an account and upload your library, with next to no oversight
<g-gundam>
(it was surprising enough that it made me want to ask here)
<beach>
semz: Oh, wow!
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<jackdaniel>
ELS'25 program is online
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<beach>
g-gundam: QL:QUICKLOAD can be used to load a library into an image, even when the library is copied to the local computer without using Quicklisp. Maybe that's what the author meant. Also, it seems strange to conclude that libraries are hard to install in Common Lisp just because one author made a false claim.
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<cdegroot_>
Maybe not false. Maybe it was in Quicklisp but got booted and the package is not maintained (and maybe that's why it got booted).
<cdegroot_>
There's choices, as usual, in CL land, g-gundam. It's a bit less batteries-included. Ultralisp is an option if you want to be able to more freely explore, and of course just cloning into local-projects is fine as well.
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<g-gundam>
cdegroot_: I'm just manually cloning into local-projects for now as needed.
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<|3b|>
g-gundam: cl-frugal-uuid seems to be in ql, possibly you have an outdated dist? (ql:update-all-dists) will get current one if so
<g-gundam>
|3b|: Let me try that... thanks for the tip.
<|3b|>
and people will frequently tell you to use ql to load things even if you had to clone it manually, just so they don't have to tell you which dependencies to install (though usually they are fairly explicit about cloning it manually first in that case)
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<g-gundam>
|3b|: that worked. I'll remember to run (ql:update-all-dists) from time to time.
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<tux0r>
it is amazing how far you can come without ultralisp these days. most of my tools work fine with only quicklisp set up. which can be assumed to be "common" these days, i guess
<JuanDaugherty>
these days? it's apparently new and i never heard of it till now
<aeth>
last time I looked into it, it only took things from GitHub
<JuanDaugherty>
and apparently lacks any kind of directory or anything
<aeth>
and it seems to take things directly from GitHub, but I can just... git clone from GitHub into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ myself
<aeth>
which I only need to do when there's a recent bugfix
<JuanDaugherty>
prolly kept somebody off the streets so there's that
<aeth>
I suppose if you have a lot of bleeding edge from-GitHub-only (unless they expanded) dependencies, it could be useful, but I try to limit my dependencies to keep them small
<ixelp>
[Feature Request] Support Fossil · Issue #295 · ultralisp/ultralisp
<aeth>
hmm, yes, that's a bit of an improvement
<aeth>
although it has to compete with 'git clone' followed by a simple script that does 'git pull' to every subdirectory in a directory to keep those up to date if needed
<aeth>
as for git, it's a good candidate for rewrite-it-in-lisp
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<tux0r>
as for git, it's a good candidate to just get rid of it
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<bjorkintosh>
tux0r: to be replaced by what exactly?
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<tux0r>
bjorkintosh: it's not that git was a unique kind of software.
<bjorkintosh>
what do you propose that it's replaced with, tux0r?
<tux0r>
git "replaced" bitkeeper (which was based on CVS), appeared around the same time as mercurial (for the same reason as mercurial), and is tailored to cater a *very* specific niche of developers, namely: the linux kernel developers. now YOUR projects aren't the linux kernel, neither are MINE. assuming that your projects, like mine, aren't projects written by a fhwegeillion-or-so people in even more branches, i unironically suggest SVN.
<tux0r>
or, if you absolutely require the decentralized aspect of the few dozens of DVCS available right now, fossil.
<tux0r>
which is what i use, mostly. (and darcs. for other reasons.)
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<aeth>
tux0r: the thing about git is that it was dogfooded on the massive Linux kernel
<aeth>
my experience with mercurial, written in Python, is that it was much slower on the handful of projects that chose hg instead of git
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<aeth>
the use of Python in the '00s was premised on the useful (single-threaded performance) corollaries of Moore's law continuing, which are long gone
<tux0r>
that's because python is slow. at least hg has a much nicer user experience.
<bjorkintosh>
tux0r: despite that, git is way up there in popular use. it has a strong network effect. how are you going to persuade that network to switch to tux0r-VS?
<bjorkintosh>
whatever tux0r-VS is.
<aeth>
tux0r: Yes, but hg has a nice user experience in the niche edge cases of "needs to do something fancy", which can often be done in git just by nuking the directory and cloning it again.
<aeth>
While git has a nice user experience in the more common case of "not having to wait as long"
<tux0r>
yes, git is closely interwoven with linux, but most projects aren't git, so that's not a relevant point for most people, and it seems to be important to repeat that every now and then.
<aeth>
And then the nail in the coffin was GitHub being exclusively git
<bjorkintosh>
does it even matter? is it relevant anymore that most projects aren't the linux kernel?
<tux0r>
bjorkintosh: i don't want to "persuade" anyone. i won't be more or less famous and/or rich just because people use a certain VCS. what i do, however, is provide *my* software (mostly) on fossil, so people will have to (at least) see fossil once if they want to try my software. as fossil provides .zip archives automatically, there's not even a hurdle here.
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<tux0r>
aeth: "just nuke everything once in a while" is an amazingly good reason to avoid git IMO.
<aeth>
except it's not too common anymore
<bjorkintosh>
I don't need convincing I assure you. I love using tcl and sqlite and have used both professionally ... if that tells you anything.
<aeth>
My point is just that source control is one of those things that needs to be invisible most of the time, i.e. as fast as possible (networking will add some delay no matter what, though)
<aeth>
which is likely why git won its generation
<aeth>
and should inform future replacements
<tux0r>
bjorkintosh: lovely. i can imagine tcl being a real lifesaver when used professionally. i have been toying with it since 1997-or-so, but it never stuck - sqlite is great though
<tux0r>
aeth: git isn't fast.
<bjorkintosh>
it was ... sublime. much like lisp. if you stare at both long enough, something lovely emerges.
<aeth>
tux0r: There's "fast" and then there's "fast enough"
<aeth>
if fast was the _only_ factor, then we'd all be in the asm channel, whatever it is
<tux0r>
aeth: SVN is "fast enough" and i never had a reason to "just start fresh" with SVN
<tux0r>
ah, nothing against asm - i wish it was more portable though ;)
<aeth>
nobody can write a portable asm without getting rid of gotos these days
<aeth>
whether it's SPIR-V or WASM or whatever else
<aeth>
have fun transforming your compiler's CL:TAGBODY
<Noisytoot>
tux0r: SVN is not a DVCS, that automatically disqualifies it
<bjorkintosh>
tux0r: the point being, that the creator of fossil (and sqlite) also uses tcl a lot.
<aeth>
Noisytoot: yes, right
<aeth>
centralized solutions are always easier.
<tux0r>
Noisytoot: most projects do not need decentralized features in their VCS. those who do won't be happy with SVN indeed.
<bjorkintosh>
at that point why not just use rcs huh?
<aeth>
of course _you_ never have to repair a SVN, because you don't get access to the relevant parts if you're just using a third party forge
<Noisytoot>
I dislike centralized VCSes
<tux0r>
bjorkintosh: fossil's scripting language is an even weirder tcl dialect
<aeth>
who knows how messy SVN is to manage
<tux0r>
bjorkintosh: SCCS > rcs
<tux0r>
SCCS has more error-prone diffs.
<tux0r>
also, SCCS is the standard posix version control system.
<aeth>
tux0r: eh, decentralized VCS is incredibly useful because now you don't need an internet connection (although these days most computers have an expectation to always have an internet connection)
<tux0r>
aeth: SVN servers are horrible to set up
<tux0r>
but the client is lovely
<aeth>
you can (and I do) even track files locally with local git repositories... and you can turn those into hosted-elsewhere git repositories without that much work
<tux0r>
you wont need too many SVN servers, so thats that. once is enough!
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<Noisytoot>
Apparently you cannot make local commits. What if you're offline, or don't want to publish your work-in-progress changes yet, or you don't actually have write access to the upstream repo and are just making changes locally?
<tux0r>
Noisytoot: "dont like it" IS an acceptable reason :-)
<aeth>
Noisytoot: Just a distinction between commits and pushing is a huge productivity boost. Now you can always commit, and it registers instantly, without network lag, and you can move on. And then only push when you reach a breaking point.
<tux0r>
"what if you're offline" doesn't happen in my life. however, you can edit as much as you want locally before uploading your changes to the SVN server. or am i misunderstanding you here?
<aeth>
Noisytoot: Although a lot of people don't seem to care about latency.
<tux0r>
aeth: i'm positive that especially git(hu|la)b users don't care about latency ;o)
<aeth>
tux0r: But with SVN, the authoritative thing is the centralized, remote server. So you push to the server less often. Ideally, you should always verify that things work before you push. You don't have to do this before you commit in git because nobody needs to see/use intermediate revisions (you can even get rid of them!). You can always push a working state so you don't mess with other people. But you
<aeth>
still have access to the intermediate states so if you're making a huge refactor (important with a language like Common Lisp where _you_ do the work, not an IDE), you can take a few steps back before pushing.
<Noisytoot>
tux0r: With git, I can clone some random repo I don't have write access to, make whatever changes I like (and keep track of them using git), and then, if I want to, push it elsewhere in order to publish my changes. How would I do that with SVN?
<aeth>
tux0r: You can thus more boldly edit when you use git because you can roll back to a previous step if you made a mistake... without having to expose that previous step to everyone else.
<tux0r>
aeth: with the linux kernel, being "decentralized", the authoritative thing is linus's branch. just because your VCS is decentralized, your project (most likely) is not
<Noisytoot>
And git allowing making commits locally and rewriting history before pushing allows for more meaningful commits that describe single changes
<aeth>
Noisytoot: I don't like git's rewriting history, personally.
<tux0r>
Noisytoot: "rewriting history" is not a great idea. i use a VCS because i want to keep track of wtf was going on.
<aeth>
I try to go for Wikipedia-style "edits". Most of the time, I'll summarize it in one line and it'll be fairly small, even if thinking of the one line takes time.
<aeth>
And if I find myself writing a long commit message, that's a good candidate for an immediately-resolved issue instead (although this now ties you to some web service for git)
<tux0r>
Noisytoot: you can totally clone an arbitrary SVN repository and upload it elsewhere. software forks existed long before git.
<aeth>
Noisytoot: Rewriting history removes the utility of git blame, so personally, I wouldn't want to ever do that.
<Noisytoot>
aeth: In order to share work-in-progress changes that I don't want to publish between computers, I will make a temporary commit of whatever the current state is, push it to a private remote, and pull it on the other computer, then later rewrite history so it's not a mess of commits that just happened whenever I switched computer
<aeth>
I'd rather the blame show me what my small thought process was than what the giant overarching commit was
<tux0r>
aeth: there are reasons why (e.g.) fossil does not even HAVE a way to rewrite history
<tux0r>
neither does CVS, technically..
<aeth>
tux0r: Definitely depends on how people work. I can definitely imagine a lot of people wanting temporary checkpoints without really giving them meaningful messages, knowing they won't be retained
<aeth>
But that's just not how I think.
<aeth>
I ideally want to make small, easily described steps that turn A into B while still functioning at every step of the way.
<aeth>
Sort of like a mathematical proof of equivalence.
<Noisytoot>
The ability to have multiple remotes is also very useful when you are maintaining a fork that regularly merges upstream changes
<tux0r>
sure, but there is the other side of the pendulum. example: my first "usable" 42links version had 12-or-so releases within one day, one per fixed bug. that was probably TOO fine.
<tux0r>
*combed
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