<bslsk05>
replit/replit_rtld_loader - A dynamic runtime shared library loader for Repls that supports system dependency assistance and handles binary segregation by Nix channel. (0 forks/2 stargazers)
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<MarchHare>
Good evening, OSDEV hackers! geist! Figured I'd pop on and let you guys know that raid rebuild went fine. It did the resync before it pulled the spare back in and rebuilt that drive, too. Unfortunately, there's something wonky with the ext4 filesystem (created in 2015)) that resize2fs doesn't like, but fsck doesn't seem to even notice. So I'm just comparing md5sums between my backup and the original, and then I think I'm going to recreate the
<MarchHare>
filesystem.
<MarchHare>
I figure that either the corrupt extent header affected whatever file it did prior to the backup (and I won't know which file it is until I run into it), or the files themselves are just fine, but I still wanna fix the filesystem.
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<Ermine>
heat: why OBS doesn't add -g to %{optflags} and then asks for debuginfo for static libs in rpmlint stage?
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<geist>
oh yay marchhare rebuilt fs
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<nikolar>
geist: what
<nikolar>
lol
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<heat>
Ermine: wdym?
<heat>
OBS should have -g in optflags, otherwise you get no split debuginfo
<zid>
looked up my ip, geoip'd me, then scanned around?
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<pie_>
man I should have read stevens or TLPI ages ago
<pie_>
pie_ currently reading some of stevens
<nikolar>
what now
<heat>
unix network programming
<heat>
the linux programming interface
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<Ermine>
interestingly enough, tlpi doesn't discuss linux specific things that much
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<heat>
"Select this option to enable the AMD Heterogeneous Core Hardware Feedback Interface. If selected, hardware provides runtime thread classification guidance to the operating system on the performance and energy efficiency capabilities of each heterogeneous CPU core. These capabilities may vary due to the inherent differences in the core types and can also change as a result of variations in the operating conditions of the system such as power
<heat>
and thermal limits."
<heat>
oh look, amd thread director
<zid>
FRED director.
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<Ermine>
oh they catched up
<Ermine>
should we sing requiem for intel now?
<heat>
no
<heat>
this likely sucks
<heat>
thread director is flawed
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<heat>
Ermine: Kernel:master should be updated this evening
<heat>
if you're into bleeding edge shit
<Ermine>
you mean on opensuse?
<heat>
yeah
<heat>
i'm just preparing release notes and pushing
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<heat>
ok pushed, lets hope it builds
<heat>
also i meant Kernel:HEAD, i'm dumb
<heat>
Ermine: TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST
<geist>
re that core hardware feedback interface, was that linux, or something else?
<geist>
i didn't get the context in the scrollback
<heat>
yeah
<heat>
was added on 6.17-rc1
<geist>
i was actually just looking into CPPC last night trying to figure it out, looks like it's in ACPI but damnit its in the active part
<geist>
ie, the place where you have to run bytecode
<heat>
i was doing the config for openSUSE for the new kernel
<heat>
also (most?) rpi5 enablement hit upstream
<heat>
so you should be able to run a vanilla kernel for the most part
<geist>
oh that's nice
<geist>
also debian 13 is out
<geist>
so time to futz with that
<heat>
now the software is only 8 years old!
<heat>
what's CPPC btw?
<geist>
yah honestly i've been running ubuntu server for so long i should at least fiddle with debian on a VM to see what's up
<zid>
C pre preprocessor
<geist>
CPPC is the part of the AMD bits that tells which cores are slightly better or worse
<geist>
basically it's a table of relative performance of each core
<geist>
but annoyingly it's not implemented as a flat table, but over in the active part of the device bits in ACPI (i forget the name of that)
<geist>
but its in the ACPI spec now
<heat>
ah neat
<geist>
AFAICT linux doesn't take advantage of it, so it just blindly assumes everything is equal, but windows tries to favor the slightly better cores, etc
<geist>
this is in addition to the x3d bits with multiple cores where it tries to run games on one CCD and everything else on the other, etc
<geist>
been playing with that on the new 9950x3d
<geist>
sure enough once you get that set up in windows, as soon as windows decides that a game is the active process it moves everything over to CCD0, with the extra cache, and parks the second CCD
<geist>
but otherwise it seems to slightly favor the second CCD and only under load spill over to the first one
<geist>
since presumably it can clock slightly faster
<geist>
but within each CCD there's a golden and a silver core (at least according to ryzen master utility) and you can see windows tend to load those up first
<zid>
I really hate ryzen master :(
<geist>
yah not a giant fan of it either, but it does at least source the info that is otherwise hidden, especially since linux doesn't seem to take advantage of it
<zid>
It's marginally better than my awful gigabyte bios
<zid>
but it's still absolutely insane
<zid>
And it will do things like reboot the machine if you press 'okay'
<geist>
*usually* it at least pops up a thing that asks if you want to
<geist>
but yeah a lot of the settings it actually either needs to reboot, or is actually writing data into the bios
<zid>
I miss when we controlled overclocks via voltage
<geist>
like PBO, etc
<geist>
as a side note i usually enable PBO, it's pretty 'free' if you can cool the core
<zid>
not bizzare +/- offset numbers that mean nothing
<geist>
everything else i dunno
<geist>
though PBO will only really help you in a fully loaded system, like running a compile or rendering something
<geist>
but in this case when running somehting like cinebench all cores, it raises all the cores up to about 5050 mhz, vs 4700
<zid>
my cooler isn't flat enough
<zid>
I just get hotspots
<geist>
this time i got a pretty decent (and pretty cheap) arctic liquid cooler III
<zid>
because of the ridiculous thermal flux these cpus have
<geist>
good performance, not that expensive AIO
<geist>
at full PBO it doesn't really break 75-78 so i'm happy with that
<geist>
previously i had some corsair thing from 2019 that couldn't keep up with the 5950
<Ermine>
heat: will do tomorrow
<zid>
I've ran my 1650 at 300W on this cooler
<zid>
but I just can't get the heat out of my ryzen with it
<zid>
200W is a struggle
<geist>
huh interesting. does it cover the entire chip?
<zid>
yea it's just not flat enough
<zid>
all the heat is being generated in some tiny 1mm^2 patches
<geist>
the really good ryzen coolers know that the ccds are offset a bit, this AIO actually offsets the pad a bit towards 'down' i think
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<geist>
but i dunno how much difference that makes
<zid>
and it's one of the older ones with heat pipes smashed into the plate
<geist>
yah get an AIO if you can, it's a big improvement and they're pretty cheap now
<zid>
well I can't, and no they're not lol
<geist>
hey at least you dont have huge tariffs
<geist>
but like < $100 or so
<zid>
I have huge VAT instead it's fine :P
<geist>
word.
<zid>
H100i is £120
<geist>
yeah but that's *exactly* what you should get away from
<geist>
corsair coolers suck
<geist>
i was using a H110i before and this cheaper arctic cooler kicks its ass
<zid>
$161 for trash
<zid>
My air cooler is worth about $30 it just isn't flat enough :P
<geist>
sure but if it doesn't work....
<geist>
a cooler that doesn't work is == $0
<zid>
I mean, it works
<zid>
I just can't do my top spec
<geist>
well the cpu at least should back off if it overheats, though i worry about the long term damage of that
<zid>
it's fine it just means it's pbo'd negatively
<zid>
and there's no damage
<zid>
They limit themselves to 90C
<zid>
which is well well well under the actual damage point, by like 100C
<geist>
yeah but the point is it'll run at 85-90C a lot wich seems like not a great idea
<zid>
it just makes the tiny SMD caps on the back die faster
<zid>
but I've yet to have an actual smd cap die of anything ever
<zid>
it's always a mosfet that goes first :P
<geist>
but sure. if you're gonna get a better fan, i've had pretty good luck on noctuas
<geist>
they're solid pieces of kit
<zid>
noctuas are super pricey, there's much cheaper chinese equivalents
<zid>
that perform like 95% as much for 50% the price
<zid>
deepcool assassin, some random bequiet!
<zid>
'id.cooling frozn' performs the same as a noctua nh-d15 :P
<geist>
bequiets are not half bad. i think they may be out of germany or something?
<geist>
yah they're german
<zid>
be quiet! pure rock 3, £37.62 on ebay
<zid>
noctua nh-d15 is actually cheap now nevermind
<zid>
They used to be expensive
<geist>
yah theyre like < $50 here i think
<zid>
They retailed for 80 but they're new old stock now
<zid>
so they're only £50
<zid>
and 2nd hand for £35
<geist>
yah that may be true, there's a newer v2 version
<geist>
so maybe they're getting rid of the old ones
<geist>
and an old noctua is almost certainly just fine, since their fans are good quality
<zid>
Unfortunately they're still using discarded plastic frm the hearing-aid factory :P
<geist>
oh?
<zid>
their colour scheme
<zid>
is 'disability brown'
<geist>
oh haha yeah. they have black ones now, but it's definitly a thing they do
<geist>
i dont care, all my cases are black and no windows
<zid>
yea I don't care either it's just unfortunate lol
<zid>
if I had wainscotting in my case maybe it'd fit in better? :P
<geist>
they also have some nice grey fans i've used for servers
<geist>
the trouble ith the dh-15 is it sticks up a lot, you need a pretty thicc case for it
<geist>
i've used the dh-12 and dh-9 for narrower cases, though the latter doesn't work too well
<zid>
My case is too thin for any coolers, so it has no side
<zid>
no need for expensive case fans either!
<geist>
yah if the noise doesn't bother ya that works fine. i could do the same with mine actually since the way i have it set the open side would be against the wall
<geist>
and i wouldn't even see it
<zid>
I've seen people post builds
<geist>
it's the old skool way of showing of fyour computer
<zid>
and they've spent more on case fans
<zid>
than I have on certain computers
<geist>
frugal is fun. i tend to be frugal on things like the case itself, but then spend good money on the parts i want to live for years
<geist>
but i'll reuse cases for 15 years if they're still fine
<zid>
I still miss my 1650
<zid>
£18 I think I paid for it
<geist>
so i'll have a nice black antec case with only usb 2 with a 5950 in it or something
<zid>
4.5GHz 12 thread quad channel with avx
<zid>
kek
<geist>
did you get rid of it?
<zid>
no the mobo stopped turning on
<zid>
and this is a permanent loaner from a friend
<zid>
because he'd just built a new PC so he just.. gave me his old one
<geist>
i still have a 2 cpu nehalem server.. what is it
<geist>
it still works it's just only good for server stuff, and it's not worth the power to run it
<zid>
The mobo from that PC is still $200.. second hand... from china
<geist>
xeon E5520
<zid>
or $400 new
<zid>
It was an RMA because one of the 8 sata connectors wasn't working
<zid>
so I got it free
<geist>
yah fill that connector with hot glue and move on
<zid>
(was supposed to be a nas)
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<zid>
it's for some reason, a nas board that has asus's full OC shit on it, seven segments, ln2 mode, etc
<zid>
I guess people wouldn't want it these days because it has usb-a and not usb-c though :P
<geist>
so i kinda messed up wit this new board for my desktop (asus prime x870) and *assumed* it had 5 channel audio
<geist>
but the dang thing doesn't. i literally had to buy a $40 sound blaster yetserday (they still make em!)
<geist>
but the prime series is generally their no frills version, which i usually get
<geist>
i dont care about lights or whatnot, just give me the board that has the chipset and all the plugs
<geist>
i'll do the rest
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<geist>
but i havne't seen a new mobo in a long time that didn't at least bring out 5.1. it's capable of it, just doesn't have the 1/8 audio jack for more than stereo and mic
<zid>
does it not have spdif either
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<geist>
it does not. it has a header for it though, so i think there's some addon, etc you can get for that
<zid>
I think they've mainly decided that anyone who cares enough about audio to 5.1 can just handle spdif, given how large a 2x3 jack block is
<geist>
but.. spidif doesn't really do true uncompressed 5.1 so i generally prefer to bring out 3 1/8 stereo jacks
<zid>
oh til
<geist>
you have to do dolby or whatnot to get 5.1
<zid>
dts only
<geist>
yah
<geist>
i'm sure it sounds fine, but i dunno if you can do that in plain linux, etc. didn't want to futz with it
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<zid>
I bet in practice it's.. totally fucking fine, but yea, that's annoying
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<zid>
I'm not sure I'd have checked for it
<zid>
Then again, I don't run 5.1
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<geist>
and of course lots of folks just use external usb based dacs and whatnot, which is probalby the way to go nowadays, but i'm kinda old school
<geist>
i have some old logitech 5.1 thing for the desk which is nice
<zid>
yea I get through a set of HD201s every year
<zid>
The right cup rotation hinge thing always snaps eventually
<geist>
right
<geist>
things designed to fail like that leave a bad taste in my mouth so i tend to avoid
<geist>
even if i can afford
<zid>
I actually salvage every few pairs back together
<zid>
and put a left cup backwards on the right
<zid>
kek
<geist>
on that note i got a ot of cleaning up to do in my nerdery
<geist>
its gotten really messy the last week or so due to a new influx of computer hardware. have to sort out all the boxes, extra cables, etc
<geist>
and figure out what to do with them
<geist>
there's always extra screws or whatnot and i like to at least get them into appropriate bags and whatnot
<zid>
buy a wardrobe for your cables to live in :P
<zid>
put them all up on hangers, use the drawers at the bottom for various bits ;)
<geist>
i'm not *that* organized but i dont like to throw things away that work, so i at least try to get stuff into appropriate ziploc bags and then put them in a box
<zid>
I keep things that don't work, never know when I might need the half that does!
<geist>
yah so last place i lived i had a whole closet with all of my cables hung up, it was lovely
<geist>
alas i dont have one of those in my current place with computer stuff
<zid>
bonus points
<zid>
get one of those wooden walls with the peg holes
<geist>
what i do now though is at least coil up most cables (ethernet, power, etc) and use these little cable ties that hold them i a core
<zid>
and draw around every cable with a pen
<geist>
coil
<geist>
and that kesp them from getting all knotted up when you just shove it in a box
<zid>
The ceiling is a foot higher than it usually would be, so there's a slope matching the roof for a section on the outside wall
<geist>
oh yeah my room when i was a kid was like that too, the roof doesn't have an eave so they pull it back a bit
<zid>
I wouldn't even care if the ceiling were lower, idk why they did this
<geist>
i dunno if there sany advantage to it except it probably doens't have an overhang outside but otherwise matches the roof line of places where it would
<zid>
roof is normal roof
<geist>
ie, if has to come down to the same height as if it were hanging over the house for an extra foot
<geist>
so it has to cut into the room to accomplish it
<zid>
it's just the ceiling that's weird
<zid>
the roof is ALWAYS sitting on top of the external walls
<geist>
but yeah my bedroom as a kid was exactly the same
<zid>
The ceiling is just weirdly high, maybe there's a standard height they wanted to hit, but refused to build the house tall enough otherwise
<zid>
so the upper rooms are pinched
<zid>
I've been shorted two rows of bricks
<geist>
my nerdery is not exactly a steeple, but it's a room above the garage, but the garage looks like it's a single story, so they built the room into where essential an attic is
<geist>
but since it's a large 2 bay garage it's a large room
<geist>
and a fairly steep roof, so lots of space
<geist>
and a huge vaulted ceiling in the room itself. lovely place, like 15x20' or so
<geist>
whatever the footprint of a two bay garage is plus some extra depth
<zid>
vaulted ceilings would be nice in the summer
<zid>
but a TERRIBLE idea here in the winter
<geist>
100% agree. my house is lovely cool in the summer, rarelyneed to use the AC
<geist>
but in the winter it's a nightmare to heat
<geist>
actually running computers really help
<geist>
for that room at least
<zid>
I live in a complete sweatbox, but it's easy to heat :P
<zid>
global warming woo
heat is now known as warmth
<geist>
in the winter i can literally not heat the house enough, and if it stays around freezing or lower for too long eventually the house starts getting colder even running at full tilt
<zid>
in the winter we sometimes need the central heating on for TWO hours
<geist>
like, 15c and below
<geist>
er, doing math in my head, like below 60F
<geist>
which is about 15c yeah
<geist>
the heat pump is undersized and has to switch to full resistive heating when it gets too cold, and then it's only about an 8kW heater, which isnt' enough
<zid>
time to buy some fibreglass insulation rolls and put a dropped ceiling in :P
<geist>
but too cold is fine, i just wear layers
<geist>
and i have a long haired cat that doesn't seem to mind
<geist>
main problem running it at full tilt with 8kW is that's like $1/hr
<geist>
and so you can easily run like a $400 power bill per month
<zid>
dang, I just checked like, what my cheap combi-boiler can output
<zid>
and it's probably nearer 25kW
<zid>
the range is 15-40 in that range depending on model and I'm too lazy to go check
<geist>
yah burning fossil fuels are great for heating
<geist>
i have a fireplace with propane i can use for aux heat, which is like 30k BTUs. i did the math on it and that's about 10kW
<zid>
It's got like, a 10cc combustion chamber
<geist>
and since a gallon of propane holds something like 35k BTUs that means it' about a gallon every 3 hours
<zid>
they're TINY
<geist>
which checks out pricewise, since a gallon of propane is like $4.50
<geist>
so... it's not the cheapest way to heat, but it's roughly in line with how much electricity it would take to generate the same heat
<zid>
gas is slightly cheaper than electricity here
<geist>
s/35k BTUS/90k BTUS etc
<zid>
8kW would just be a single 30A supply.. I have three of those, would probably be plenty
<geist>
whatever the energy content of propane is
<zid>
would just need to be on for 2 hours not 1
<geist>
yah but what does a kW/h cost?
<geist>
ah yeah 2 hours no sweat
<zid>
like 16p, gas is a lot harder to figure out
<zid>
because it's in 'units' and we'd need to convert to equivalent resistive heatinget c
<geist>
yah you have to go through the math of energy content of gas
<geist>
which is why i just tried to get it to kW and then it's all even steven
<clever>
and there is the question of how much waste heat goes out the exaust
<geist>
since over there i suspect the stuff is BTUs
<zid>
I'd love a heat pump :(
<geist>
they're pretty good *except* when it gets too cold
<zid>
Even a tiny tiny one would just knock the edge off in winter and summer sufficiently
<geist>
then they have to knock out and switch to reistive
<zid>
It doesn't get too cold here
<geist>
yah
<geist>
clever lives in arctica so probably knows about it
<clever>
just NB canada :P
<geist>
has to go kill a moose and sleep in its warm corpse
<zid>
too cold for the refridgerant is like -30C and too cold for the power output would need.. yea -30C
<clever>
i use an oil fired boiler, that then circulates hot water thru the house
<mcrod>
hi
<geist>
yah my sisters house uses that, seems like a good idea
<geist>
my house was retrofitted with a heat pump 10 years into its life so it's not that well routed because there wasn't any space
<zid>
combi boiler
<zid>
They're teeeny
<geist>
aaaand the real problem isit's a log cabin, which has a really weird R-factor
<clever>
the house is already setup with 3 zones, and i just replaced the thermostats with ds18b20's and SSR's
<geist>
mcrod: hola
<mcrod>
i should come in here more
<geist>
sometimes we even talk about osdev!
<mcrod>
mostly i nag the fucking shit out of heat on discord these days
<clever>
geist: something ive thought about, heat pump boiler....
<clever>
you can get heat pump water heaters, but they just suck heat out of the room
<geist>
we're talking about heating the house a lot so we can tag heat constantly
<geist>
i can hear his phone blatting because of irrcloud
<mcrod>
good idea
<clever>
if you could move outdoor heat into the water, and then reuse the existing rads....
<zid>
Problem with heat pumps here is that they *must* be installed by a registered fitter, even if they're on quick-disconnects or self-seal after being connected etc
<zid>
And there are no fitters, and cheating is hard because everybody who sells them says "And what's the firm that's installing it?"
<geist>
i can and probably should ge tmy heat pump upgraded since it's an old model and they probably have more efficient stuff
<zid>
before they will deliver
<geist>
but thats probalby like $20k to do that around here
<geist>
everything is so fucking expensive to do on house
<clever>
i think i also saw a video recently, about using CO2 as the working gas in a heat pump
<bslsk05>
'Why CO2 Heat Pumps Are The Future Of Cooling' by Undecided with Matt Ferrell
<zid>
Yea but it'slike.. a couple of liters lol
<geist>
actually i really dont mind using electricity that much because at least the generation is pretty cheap here in the PNW. pretty clean all told
<geist>
lots of hydroelectric, lots of wind farms
<geist>
at least a siable portion isn't just coal
<clever>
zid: awful as a refrigerant, or if it leaks?
<zid>
yes, no
<geist>
dowside is being in the woods it's not really effective to use solar which i'd love to nerd with
<clever>
i forget the details, but it was something about the temp range it works at being different, and needing a higher pressure
<zid>
The boiling point is dumb
<clever>
so you dont have things failing at -30c?
<zid>
It's like -80C
<clever>
yeah, so it will boil, even in -30c degree weather
<zid>
You want the phase change to happen
<geist>
hmm, that may make sense. from my paintball days iirc at room temperature the point at which CO2 compresses is like 900psi, then it turns into liquid
<clever>
and can do its job as the working gas in a heat pump
<zid>
so you can use the expansion
<geist>
but it then stores a lot of heat
<geist>
so compress and expand and that's probably pretty effective if you can handle the high pressure
<zid>
So in order to get it to say, -30C, you need a fuck load of pressure
<clever>
geist: yeah, compress it to 900psi and it will heat up, dump that heat indoors and it will condense into a liquid
<clever>
then slowly release it into a coil that is somewhere above -80c, and it will boil off and suck the ever loving heat out of nature
<clever>
then repeat!
<zid>
yes the problem is the 900psi
<clever>
yeah
<geist>
and you could run that backwards
<zid>
you use propane atlike, 20psi
<geist>
so can you get a compressor that runs cheap enough to come out ahead and better than regular stuff is the trick
<clever>
so if you can solve the pressure problem, you have a heat pump that works down to -80c on the cold side
<zid>
How much do you think a 900psi compressor that works at -80C costs? :p
<clever>
zid: ah yes, and i have seen many resteraunt units using that
<geist>
i had also read somethingl ike using CO2 as an energy storage. like having a ridiculously large tank that you compress and uncompress at night
<clever>
geist: i think i heard something about using dry oil wells as the tank in that
<zid>
Most things are possible, if you're willing to make it out of monocrystalline titanium with sapphire bearings and stuff
<geist>
yah and you are extracting CO2 out of the atmosphere to boot (though i'm sure a drop in the bucket)
<zid>
Just the expansion and contraction from the unit going to -80C and back is going to fuck everything
<zid>
plastics will die instantly
<geist>
but that probabably also makes it slightly cost effective if you can trade CO2 tokens for it
<clever>
zid: but do you need to go all the way to -80?
<geist>
credits, depending on if your gubmit pays for that
<zid>
means you get it for free from a petroleum plant
<geist>
looksl ike R-12 is banned now except as a fire retardent
<clever>
18c is 291 kelvin, lets say 5 MPa?
<zid>
There are some nice banned fire-retardants too
<clever>
which is 725psi
<geist>
looks like R-22 is now getting phased out
<clever>
fits with previously stated numbers
<clever>
zid: i think the bigger problem ive heard wth 290, is that its unscented
<clever>
so you wont even smell a leak, until it goes boom
<zid>
I mean, you could if you wanted, but there's very little in there
<zid>
and getting the right air-fuel mix for it to actually boom is super hard, what usually happens when a house goes boom from a gas leak, is that it's just waiting for the mixture to get rich enough
<clever>
so it looks like the good thing with CO2, is that its so eager to boil, that you can boil it at 10atm in antartica, lol
<zid>
and is constantly *trying* to go boom ever since the leak started
<geist>
i love the stuff that binds with all the oxygen in the room
<clever>
but the bad thing with CO2, is getting it to condense again at room temps
<geist>
halon
<zid>
but a fridge just doesn't have enough propane to get there
<zid>
halon is super bad for you sadly
<geist>
that's some naaaasty stuff, i think only like military uses are allowed to do that now
<zid>
yea
<zid>
Carbon tet
<zid>
is the one I was trying to remember
<clever>
i should run off now, i need to go have supper
<zid>
super super banned because it's basically liquid phosgene :P
<zid>
ozone depeleting greenhouse gas that cooks your liver and mustard gasses you
<zid>
A+ evil stuff
<geist>
what's the brake cleaner stuff that's also terrible for you and the environment... tetracloroethyline?
<zid>
That's america-only
<zid>
EU never got the good shit
<geist>
something like that. my sis who works in environmental cleanup says thats some of the nastiest shit because it's heavy and doesn't break down
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<geist>
so as soon as it gets to the ground it just soaks in and sinks
<zid>
tetrachloroethylene + DCM
<zid>
DCM is nice, but the tet is nasty yea
<geist>
and it finds its way to water supply because it sinks over time
<geist>
anyeway i should run off too and like do something with the afternoon
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warmth is now known as heat
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<kof673>
> america-only u.s. . the official story is the americans all went to be federal citizens and they all vanished, so the u.s. army put up a war flag to pledge to in the meantime the past ~100 years, until the "americans" show up.
<kof673>
this has gone on a long time, but no reason to aid and abet
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