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* geist
yawns
<geist>
hiya fronds
<heat>
hi ghost
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<nikolar>
oi
<geist>
wow thems is expensive headphones
<geist>
i get how nice a fantastic pair is but that's ridiculous
<nikolar>
what are you talking about geist
<geist>
oh ZetItUp mentioned some expensive headphones
<geist>
like 6 hours ago
<nikolar>
oh i wasn't online
<pog>
bzerohi
<nikolar>
wat
<pog>
hi
<nikolar>
oi
<heat>
pog pog pog
<pog>
heat bzero
<heat>
bazinga
<pog>
bzero
<heat>
too late for i am the bazinger, and you are the bazingee
<pog>
don't bazinga me bro
<heat>
baz
<heat>
bazelinga
<pog>
i was saying bazinga before you were born
<heat>
you merely adopted the bazinga i was born in it
<nikolar>
heat, quickly, i need a good name for a filesyste
<nikolar>
*filesystem
<heat>
ext4
<nikolar>
i didn't say i needed a filesystem
<nikolar>
i said a needed a name
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<heat>
yeah, ext4
<nikolar>
no
<heat>
it's a good filesystem name
<nikolar>
and it's already taken
<heat>
ext5
<nikolar>
well i need a new and original name
<nikolar>
not just ext4++
<heat>
zzfs
<heat>
the laster word in filesystems
<nikolar>
scroll the line into the middle of the screen and then find the character s on the said line?
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<heat>
onyxfs
<nikolar>
do you want my fs on onyx?
<nikolar>
it's not in c++ and not a clone of linux
<heat>
sure
<nikolar>
i might genuinely port it once i finish the fuse version kek
<heat>
you know it's extremely impolite to diss people's work right
<nikolar>
sure, but it's also clearly a joke
<nikolar>
you've certainly done a lot more osdev than me and i respect that
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<nikolar>
heat: what's this photon thing in onyx
<heat>
i understand but it frequently feels dismissive
<heat>
anyway
<heat>
photon was supposed to be the graphics subsystem
<nikolar>
was supposed to?
<nikolar>
i guess you gave up then
<heat>
it never went anywhere because i suck at graphics, don't really want to write GPU drivers, don't have domain-specific knowledge and don't want to write opengl drivers and wayland extension bindings things against this stuff
<heat>
so it exists, technically
<nikolar>
just port x, easy
<heat>
but the end game would be to actually port DRM
<heat>
like every other good UNIX
<nikolar>
to be fair, i'd probably just do a silly little framebuffer and work with that
<heat>
i have xorg working with that yeah
<nikolar>
because porting drm doesn't sound fun
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<heat>
i mean, assuming you get to emulating a fair bit of linux APIs, it Just Works, and you can get other drivers (wireless!) for free
<pog>
pogfs
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<nikolar>
wireless?
<heat>
yeah wifi
<zid>
802.11
<zid>
NDIS used to be that
<zid>
wrap the common api they all used on windows
<nikolar>
oh i didn't get what you were saying, ok
<zid>
ndiswrapper and you get wireless drivers
<zid>
it's why wifi barely if ever worked on linux :P
<pog>
ah ndiswrapper
<nikolar>
hey, it works now
<nikolar>
mostly
<pog>
i used that once
<nikolar>
kind of
<zid>
yea they have their own proper drivers now
<nikolar>
mostly!
<zid>
instead of wine'ing the windows ones
<heat>
yeah, i thought about an NDIS-like solution on linux kernel modules, but it sadly doesn't work, because ABI is unstable and different distros have different ABIs, even for the exact same kernel version
<pog>
as long as you don't have a chip that apple said "you can't license the firmware blob to anybody else"
<nikolar>
heat: is onyx buildable with the regular distro toolchain or do i need to build a "proper onyx toolchain"
<nikolar>
because i can't be asked to do that
<zid>
You're basically source compatible though aren't you
<zid>
can't you just build them
<heat>
i'm not source compatible
<zid>
I said basically
<heat>
some interfaces are similar but not quite the same
<zid>
so pick a random kernel version, write a few shims
<zid>
and cp drivers/ :P
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<heat>
an easy example is my copy_from_user which takes the exact same args, but the return value is quite different
<heat>
i'm also yet to write a proper concurrency-managed workqueue implementation
<nikolar>
what's concurrency-managed
<heat>
basically, you usually want a single workqueue thread running on each CPU
<heat>
except when work blocks. then you want to have another worker
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<heat>
concurrency-managed means that you dynamically spawn/delete pool workers as work blocks/unblocks
<nikolar>
ah managed in that sense
<nikolar>
too bad there are a million different usages of "managed" kek
<zid>
we should rename those uses of managed to 'daddied'
<zid>
.NET is a daddied language
<nikolar>
i think that counts as different "managed"
<nikolar>
concurrency-daddied workqueues
<heat>
note that the linux workqueue implementation is quite interesting, at one point in the early 00s there was a problem where each "logical" workqueue spawned its own threads, so you could run out of pids before reaching init
<nikolar>
that's a lol
<zid>
because they effectively queued up all of init?
<zid>
I could see there being 32k *future* threads needed to get to /bin/login
<zid>
if you decided to allocate threads for them all and turn it all into a big runqueue
<heat>
because e.g a workqueue wants to create a single thread for each CPU, so with pid_max = 4096 and ncpus = 16 you could have 256 workqueues created before blowing everything up
<zid>
oh so just stupidity
<heat>
not to mention things being incredibly wasteful with each thread requiring a kernel stack, etc
<heat>
ye, it's stupid, which is why they rewrote it to be smarter
<heat>
now you get a handful of pools and workqueues share those
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<Ermine>
nikolar: how do you plan to build onyx userspace without x86_64-onyx toolchain?
<heat>
yeah luckily you can download one
<nikolar>
Ermine: i don't know heat's build requirements
<heat>
i used to have macOS toolchains but those builds broke
<heat>
and i don't use appel
<nikolar>
why would anyone use appel voluntarily
<nikolar>
and do osdev on it
<heat>
freebsd devs
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<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
admittedly the user story for onyx is pretty crap, i mean to work on it next week when i'm back home
<nikolar>
define user story
<heat>
"use onyx"
<heat>
"how?"
<nikolar>
qemu -hda onyx.img
<nikolar>
duh
<heat>
considering i already have a dnf repo with a bunch of packagen, there's no real reason why things couldn't be better than they are
<nikolar>
ugh dnf
<nikolar>
my condolences
<heat>
except some botched packages where some deps are missing
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
dnf is nice
<heat>
particularly i'm using dnf5 which is faster
<heat>
the OG dnf is in python
<nikolar>
is this one in rust
<heat>
c++
<nikolar>
almost as bad
<heat>
redhat just reached the year 2000 so they're rewriting the core packaging software in C++
<nikolar>
and where were they when they wrote the said software in python lol
<heat>
1990
<nikolar>
i think you got the order reversed
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<heat>
the first version of python predates the first C++ standard
<nikolar>
i bet a lot of software was written in python back then
<Ermine>
would you consider zypper at this point
<heat>
maybe
<heat>
i'm invested into dnf but if zypper Just Works with the dnf repo file stuff, then that's good
<heat>
i don't have a meaningful comparison between the two
<heat>
except that both work and both are reasonably fast
<Ermine>
.repo files look similar for dnf and zypper
<heat>
oh, yeah, zypper on tumbleweed recently got parallel downloads
<heat>
i don't have big hottakes wrt package managers, except that i find apt-get excruciatingly annoying and slow, and that pacman plays a little loose with data consistency
<nikolar>
that's why you use system wide snapshots, and you don't need to rely on every single program getting data consistency correct :P
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<Ermine>
i don have storage for system wide snapshots
<zid>
wide snapchats = picutres of my mum
<Ermine>
you offer those?
<heat>
(open)SUSE does snapshots integrated into zypper
<nikolar>
Ermine: what do you mean you don't have storage
<heat>
ermine uses ext4
<heat>
none of that btrfs bloat
<heat>
tfw your filesystem tries to do RAID
<heat>
and partitioning
<heat>
and volume management
<nikolar>
mine doesn't try
<nikolar>
it does it
<nikolar>
successfully
<Ermine>
nikolar: exactly what it says on the tin
<heat>
zzfs is the laster word in filesystems though
<Ermine>
heat: hm, that probably explains why each zypper dup takes another 1.5G of space
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<heat>
as far as I know all of those snapshot systems do GC?
<heat>
but i don't usually use that stuff so idk
<Ermine>
idk either
<nikolar>
heat: what do you mean
<Ermine>
but gc would explain why I haven't hit ENOSPC yet
<heat>
nikolar: filesystem should auto delete old snapshots if needed, no?
<nikolar>
eh no?
<nikolar>
you have to tell it to delete
<nikolar>
if we're talking about btrfs/zfs snapshots
<heat>
sounds a little broken then
<nikolar>
how
<heat>
well i would hope some random system service takes care of that
<nikolar>
you have to create them, and you have to delete them
<nikolar>
sounds perfectly reasonable to me
<heat>
if zypper does a snapshot automatically
<heat>
enough zypper dups and you ran out of space
<nikolar>
well if zypper creates, it should delete
<nikolar>
not sure if zypper if aware of fs level snapshots though
<heat>
it is
<heat>
that's what i'm saying, it sets off a btrfs snapshot on updates
<nikolar>
then it probably keeps a couple and deletes the oldest
<nikolar>
but that's on zypper, not on the fs
<Ermine>
i can go with btrfs next time
<nikolar>
go with zfs :P
<heat>
i just went with btrfs because it's the work laptop and also the default option
<heat>
and SUSE is btrfspilled in general
<nikolar>
i thought you hated that bloated crap
<nikolar>
ext4 for lyfe and all that
<heat>
i'm not a big fan, no
<heat>
my new desktop has ext4 of course
<heat>
i briefly considered xfs but then... yeah no
<heat>
ext4 is the devil i know
<nikolar>
kek
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<kof673>
nikolar, what does your fs do? the name should probably vaguely relate to what it does
<kof673>
also, vulturefs or kekfs the joke is there are 2 :D
<kof673>
see, native and fuse :D
<nikolar>
well, for now, nothing
<nikolar>
but it's supposed be a btree based cow fs, think zfs or btrfs
<nikolar>
or apfs as well i guess
<zid>
My dinner was cow based
<kof673>
i only do picture names. kek and jack were related, like dark/light. like "the shining" lol. just do a frog with a btree beanstalk lol cow/goose was earth but too complicated. kekfs give him a double axe if you want lol