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<Psy-Q>
after a brief 12 year absence from ruby i'm looking forward to getting back into it again. i saw a bunch of features from other languages were absorbed :D
<Psy-Q>
i tried to write my stuff in python when ruby/rails lost mindshare but it's just not the same, eh. there's no spark there. drab and joyless.
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<kmad>
Heh. I've been toying with Python recently because it's what most people at work are vaguely familiar with (if you can even call it that) and I'm constantly thinking how Ruby is better in every way. It's still a mystery to me how on earth Ruby did not come out on top in every conceivable way 20-something years ago.
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<testone>
there are 2 fields where ruby isn't better: 1) variety and maintainance of libraries and 2) speed of some libs
<kmad>
That's true now, but 20-odd years ago neither language had a crazy huge selection of libraries. (Perl did though.)
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<Psy-Q>
i think python benefitted a lot from being the de-facto language taught in many places. even just secondary schools
<Psy-Q>
if it wasn't a CS program or the like (where they just did Java here), it would always be python
<Psy-Q>
maybe van rossum had contacts in higher education, i dunno. but yeah, ruby is more pleasant in every way for me. i would rewrite the python crap i wrote for work but most of the servers don't have ruby :(
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<The_Camel>
biggest bitch move I ever saw in excel (or even libre-calc) is the lack of "insert x" amount of rows above/below row.
<o0x1eef>
I'm learning Python and I don't feel that way. The framing is all wrong for me. A language doesn't have to lose so the other one can "win". Both are great languages. Everyone has different preferences, and your preferences don't make one language better than the other.
<The_Camel>
I don't know what the argument is about but I definitely like ruby more than python and can come up with very strong arguments to say why python has severe problems.
<The_Camel>
especially from an engineering point of view.
<o0x1eef>
Well, I don't want to misrepresent what was said, but to paraphrase the argument was along the lines that Ruby lost market share to Python, that shouldn't be the case, Ruby is the better language
<The_Camel>
oh, well, the reason ruby lost market is, in my opinion, due to american push and ownership
<The_Camel>
they don't want their stack run by a language made by a japanese person :P
<o0x1eef>
Probably some truth in that. At least, people have complained that there was a language barrier for core contributions. I don't know the reason. But I don't think Python is terrible or doesn't deserve its place.
<The_Camel>
o0x1eef, I don't think it's terrible either.
<The_Camel>
but ruby IS better. I'll say just that :)
<o0x1eef>
Ruby is not perfect though
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<The_Camel>
I...... don't like to admit it... but yeah, it's not perfect.
<o0x1eef>
What stands out to me between the two is that Ruby firmly planted itself as a web language, and Python is more general. A lot of different applications for Python. With Ruby, it's generally the web.
<o0x1eef>
I also think Ruby lacks diversity. Generally Rails rules the nest. There are alternatives, but they don't really see much traction. It's a Rails world.
<The_Camel>
o0x1eef, if I was a company, I'd try to change that.
<The_Camel>
o0x1eef, I would build somethin akin to the QT framework.
<The_Camel>
and make ruby specialize in tasks that Erlang was made for.
<havenwood>
The_Camel: tk used to ship with Ruby. Python has far more comprehensive, up-to-date graphics bindings.
<The_Camel>
o0x1eef, interprocess communication.
<havenwood>
The_Camel: Erlang did a per-actor GC 25 years ago, in 2000.
<havenwood>
It took them 15 years to really hone it and make it work well.
<havenwood>
We're starting to talk about per-Ractor GC in 2025.
<havenwood>
And Ractors barely work yet, so we're about half a century behind.
<havenwood>
Nice a Rubyist went on to create Elixir. We at least get some Ruby-inspired distributed computing.
<o0x1eef>
True!
<The_Camel>
havenwood, I like elixir.
<The_Camel>
havenwood, and I also like erlang. really do. but it's like
<The_Camel>
let's just say anything I want or need that's external (e.g an external library or package) is untouched for years and is broken
<The_Camel>
last I recall, after writing some erlang code, I want to do some web requests. there was only like 1 github repo written by some guy ages ago. i pulled it with rebar3. didn't work.
<The_Camel>
which is just fucking sad
<The_Camel>
to think erlang itself, didn't come with internal HTTP capabilities.
<The_Camel>
it had json though.
<The_Camel>
no xml.
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<The_Camel>
how. just how does a language specialized in interprocess communication... not come with HTTP capabilities.
<The_Camel>
I thought that shit was supposed to be used on servers. servers are the epitome of web access
<The_Camel>
unless
<The_Camel>
they designed it to be inhouse for local stuff and only act as a front end to something else
<The_Camel>
but I cannot always do that when there's data in between
<The_Camel>
so I must at least do 10 clicks
<The_Camel>
to insert a row once. insert another one. select 2 rows. insert again to put in "2". then insert some more before I finally have 10 empty rows
<The_Camel>
Psy-Q, and do what you said :P
<The_Camel>
it's still retarded. terrible UX
<The_Camel>
"Insert X rows" could've solved it so easily.
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<kmad>
The_Camel: Erlang was built back in the mid-'80s by/at Ericsson for telecom stuff (hence OTP, Open Telecom Platform). If you want all the good stuff from BEAM and OTP but with a more Ruby-like syntax, Elixir is the way to go --- and it has plenty of HTTP stuff.
<The_Camel>
kmad, that's neat. but that was just a secondary requirement for what I insinuated primarily.
<The_Camel>
that being - that if I was a company, I'd try to revive ruby by creating a framework similar to QT for it.
<The_Camel>
among a bunch of other things. that "OTP"-like interprocess communication being some aspect of it.
<The_Camel>
the first thing that really bugs me is ruby not having a dedicated opensource IDE for it. akin to KDevelop.
<The_Camel>
I'd need an army of people to fix things
<kmad>
The_Camel: Does it need one? (Honest question. I use Vim/Neovim for everything, so I haven't touched a real IDE for years.)
<kmad>
I mean, don't people already have their favorite IDE that they'd want to use?
<kmad>
Btw, re the Erlang thing, I was mainly replying to your gripe about it not having HTTP stuff. I just meant to say that I don't think HTTP was really in scope when they developed it.
<Psy-Q>
The_Camel: hmm, i'm not sure i understad the need for the first insert row, can't you insert right into the middle of the data like this? https://imgur.com/a/xZBG0qW
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<The_Camel>
Psy-Q, unsure. did not try that. is this on libre-calc?
<The_Camel>
kmad, it needs an IDE.
<The_Camel>
there are paid solutions. jetbrains' rubymine
<The_Camel>
it's just not free.
<Psy-Q>
The_Camel: yeah. not sure what it might be in excel or somewhere else
<kmad>
The_Camel: But why? Aren't there plenty IDEs out there that does Ruby already? I personally prefer to stick to one editor for all languages, but that's just my personal preference, hence why I'm curious. Do people really switch IDE when they switch language?
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<fantazo>
kmad: sounds silly to switch IDEs or editors. The only reason would be something an actual lisp machine or an actual Smalltalk system. that would be a totally different meaning of "IDE" there.
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