<contrapunctus>
bike: I tried (invoke-restart 'dex:retry-request) and it failed to find the restart...also, here's my function - https://paste.rs/4KncU.lisp
<bike>
the restart might be associated with the condition? let me check dexador again...
<bike>
maybe not, but... is the code that establishes the retry-request restart within dex:post?
<bike>
because if so, it looks like you're trying to invoke a restart from your own restart, and by the time your own restart is firing you're out of the extent of dex:post, so any restarts it established are kaput
<bike>
you might actually have to use restart-bind, which i've never seen anyone actually use before
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<bike>
let me try to make this clearer. you call SEND. send calls DEX:POST and that signals an error. in the debugger, or whatever, you select your WAIT-AND-RETRY restart. that transfers control to the restart body - so DEX:POST is effectively aborted, and thus you can't restart into it any more.
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<contrapunctus>
bike: Ah, thanks for the explanation. I'll look into restart-bind...
<mesaoptimizer>
why is there no `save-lisp` and only `save-lisp-and-die`?
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<beach>
mesaoptimizer: You need to ask the SBCL people. This is not a standard function anyway.
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<scymtym>
i don't know the details but i think the lisp image has to be prepared for being saved to a file and restarted. the preparation involves releasing and destroying (unix) resources in a way that makes the image unable to continue without a complete restart
<beach>
Makes sense.
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<pl>
scymtym: full image dumps on many systems, for various reasons including how exactly they happen, often require dropping state - or having special mangling of the resulting image
<pl>
essentially, you can either apply fixups to the memory data in non-trivial way, or "die"
<pl>
even the OS on Lisp Machines used the latter
<beach>
It seems we need a Lisp OS.
<beach>
<beach>
Then, people seem to still use Windows for reasons that I don't understand.
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<pl>
Lisp OSes "died" when saving image same way :V honestly, the only more major system where I've seen measures taken for handling things like "save image without dying" is paradoxically Microsoft .NET
<beach>
Well, I was thinking of an OS with universal persistence. No explicit saving would then be required.
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<beach>
No Unix resources would have to be released or destroyed, since it wouldn't be Unix.
<jackdaniel>
Linux gainex hot upgrade capability a few years ago
<jackdaniel>
gained*
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<beach>
Excellent! Is that related to universal persistence?
<pl>
not really, also not as hot as people make it seem
<beach>
I see.
<pl>
beach: btw, funny thing about Linux - one of the things that trip some programs is that Linux actually has Multics-style I/O instead of Unix style :D
<jackdaniel>
even if things are universally persistent, some resources are not possible to restore on a different machine (or even the same one), like a networi connection
<beach>
pl: In what way are the different?
<pl>
i.e. unix read/write calls are effectively executed on top of Multics-style "map disk to memory"
<beach>
I see.
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<beach>
pl: I shouldn't be surprised. Many things Multics did could not be done that way in the machines that Unix was first developed for. But the processors have evolved, so if the Multics way was better, then a Unix-like system could now often do it that better way.
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<pl>
beach: a lot of mythology written by people who were *not* part of the original UNIX team poisoned people's minds that Multics was somehow very bad etc, when in reality Unix was kinda "damn, I miss the stuff we had in Multics, but PDP-7 and PDP-11 have barely anything in resources in comparison"
<beach>
Exactly!
<beach>
And at least one OS book that I have says that Unix was the first operating system written in a high-level language. :)
<Demosthenex>
yeah, file pages?
<Demosthenex>
i love history like this =]
<beach>
What do you mean by "file pages"?
<Demosthenex>
multiple unixes use file pages in memory to map to disk files, and that's how they implement io caching. you don't write the file, you write the file page, and then the sync process takes file pages marked dirty to flush to disk.
<beach>
I see.
<Demosthenex>
i think it's interesting that came from multics
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<pl>
Well, this exact behaviour is Linux specific
<pl>
most unices have some form of caching and memory mapping files
<pl>
but on Linux it's the core memory management and IO model
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<pl>
hard to describe it on the run, but on Linux the "pagecache" is ubiquitous and covers every non-physical memory mapping
<pl>
(it actually causes problems at times and limitations, but that's another rant)
<pl>
on most other unices the disk i/o cache is more separated, as in, on Linux every memory allocation you get in userspace is a page from pagecache, same as when you access files
<pl>
every non-directio file access is just modification of data in page cache
<pl>
with actual writing to disk being equivalent of swapping out a page of memory
<Demosthenex>
nice.
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<pl>
Demosthenex: it does cause problems, that are only recently fixed
<pl>
for a long time filesystem code a) could not use block sizes bigger than page size b) could not request new memory allocations while writing
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<Demosthenex>
hrm. linux has had plenty of other io issues, those sound minor ;]
<Demosthenex>
i'm still recovering from sync-gate
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<pl>
any sync gate is related to this as well
<pl>
because fd's IO is decoupled from disk activity
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<Demosthenex>
sure, but sync-gate is the name for a 2018 finding postgres made that linux failed to handle errors on write
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<aeth>
System resources are rarely a problem anymore, but the problem now is that if someone sets out to make a better OS in all sorts of fancy ways, they'll never finish.
<aeth>
Although the past 10 years of hardware stagnation has probably helped.
<aeth>
(Stagnation relative to the prior 40+ years...)
<aeth>
Someone who set out to make something in 2015 would see a hardware world basically identical today, with the same two architectures as the only ones of note (x86-64 and ARM, with RISC-V surely on the horizon).
<aeth>
(GPUs have changed considerably, but that's the responsibility of the GPU drivers.)
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