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<geist>
okay
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<jcoding2>
Like do you use Vi/Vim, Emacs, or even VS Code?
<jcoding2>
I personally use Vim because it doesn't have LSP and I don't like that it gives me constant errors related to the fact that files don't exist because they're in a different directory.
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<geist>
i've used vim for years and years and this last year generally switched to vscode with vim bindings
<jcoding2>
Yeah I just started using Vim. Just starting to learn it actually but remembered how to quit :-D
<jcoding2>
VS Code is good tho
<jcoding2>
For application development that is. When you do low-level development then Vim is the general winner
<geist>
depends. i use vscode for low leel stuff too. doesn't really change
<geist>
it's the same editor, still understands the same stuff
<geist>
at least with the appropriate plugins. you can get it to understand most assembly syntaxes, for example
<jcoding2>
Yeah... I'd need to disable my clangd in my settings.json file (at least for the local project). I had to get a GAS asm extension even though there aren't a lot of good plugins
<geist>
for my project i use make, and i've found the utility 'bear' is pretty good at making a compile_project.json
<geist>
then clangd works like a champ
<geist>
other projects at work and whatnot the build system generates the json file
<nikolar>
yeah bear+clangd is nice
<jcoding2>
Oh!
<geist>
that's the biggest weakness to be honest, it works *fantastic* if you have the compile_json, otherwise it's not even as good as vim + ctags
<nikolar>
geist: why did you switch to vs code of all things though :P
<geist>
nikolar: because work
<nikolar>
oh my condolences
<geist>
also the remote capability of vscode is fantastic
<nikolar>
vim has that too!
<nikolar>
it's called ssh :P
<geist>
actually works well for me since i have a bunch fo machines to ssh into
<geist>
well to be precise i generally use gvim
<geist>
and yeah you can X forward that depending, and that kinda works, but not over a high latency link
<nikolar>
that's probably a first time i hear someone say that
<nikolar>
re gvim
<geist>
but honestly i dont mind vscode now. took me a while to dial it in, but now i' happy with it
<geist>
and since i switch between three oses at a regular interval, it makes all three of them exactly the same experience, which is fine
<nikolar>
i mean, vim does that too
<geist>
i can vscode remote into the same headless box and do the same work with the same setup no matter what machine i'm sitting in front of
<jcoding2>
VS Code was my norm - basically I just use my Neovim setup
<nikolar>
ah so not vim, but neovim
<geist>
nikolar: no shit. that's why i'm happy with vscode, it gives me what i already had, and i like it a little better
<jcoding2>
Right but sometimes I do vim.
<geist>
nikolar: until it did provide that it wasn't an improvement
<nikolar>
fair enough
<nikolar>
i just can't stand vs code myself
<zid`>
with vscode can you turn off
<zid`>
the copilot etc shit
<geist>
but that in mind i use the vim plugin for vscode so it uses vim bindings
<zid`>
or is it always.. microsofty
<nikolar>
geist: yeah i know
<geist>
zid`: of course. it's just a plugin
<nikolar>
it's still vs code though
<geist>
zid`: buuuuut i actually like it
<nikolar>
zid`: i am pretty sure copilot is opt in
<zid`>
I don't think of course was very obvious lol
<nikolar>
because you need an account or something
<geist>
right
<jcoding2>
Honestly Copilot is one of the worst things known to programming. Things need to get back in shape - after all, what happens if you replace all of the programmers that work on the AI with AI? It's meant to think it's perfect - so then it'll just get worse
<nikolar>
(wouldn't know, haven't used copilot or vs code with copilot, just guessing)
<geist>
ad it's just a plugin, you can disable vscode back to nothing. the main downside of it is it requires a fairly beefy machine. but i have beefy machines
<zid`>
I've used windows as a daily driver for long enough to know how much it loves to advertize crap like cortana and copilot and stuff inside what should be functional software
<jcoding2>
My laptop is 10 year old so I replaced Windows 10 with a nice Linux mint install
<nikolar>
geist: well i don't want my text edior to require a beefy machine :P
<geist>
i mean i actually use it, and it helps sometimes. but i use it for mundane stuff that it does a fantastic job at
<zid`>
Like, if you told me people would happily use a text editor that advertizes a premium forest-burning-down option a few years ago I'm not sure I'd have believed you :P
<nikolar>
yeah, it's basically a copy-paste on steroids
<geist>
and then we have gemini code stuff at work
<geist>
if that's what everyone thinks i'm not gonna argue with ya. it's more helpful than you think, but you have to work with it a bit
<geist>
but i find it useful
<zid`>
I don't think it isn't useful
<zid`>
I do think it's a massive scam that's going to implode the tech industry and is actively harming the democracies of the west and the natural resources of the world, though.
<geist>
it's eally fantastic for the simple stuff. like you start to type 'print...' and it just completes the printf with all the types proper that you were probably just about to printf anyway
<geist>
it's great for that sort of stuff
<zid`>
It's also like, incredibly theft-driven
<geist>
so here's the fun thing: you can run ollama locally and there are vscode plugins to talk to ollama
<nikolar>
geist: yeah if you want a more context aware autocomplete, it's great
<zid`>
"But it ALREADY crushed those orphans"
<geist>
so you dont need a cloud account
<geist>
nikolar: that's basically all i use it for, and once you get the hang of it and figure out what it's good at you can just go with i
<nikolar>
just go with i?
<zid`>
it
<geist>
it's also fantastic for error code handling, especially with language like rust or C++ where you may have a more structured error handling path
<geist>
or even try/catch style things with python
<geist>
it'll quickly set up the framework for you to then fill in the details. ie, more context aware autocomplete
<nikolar>
but it's not a magic tool that will replace human programmers
<nikolar>
which is what it's being advertised as
<geist>
i am separating whatever politics, advertising, etc from what it does for me
<geist>
that's on another paygrade, and i will not judge based on whether or not you do or dont use it
<zid`>
Those orphans are pre-crushed :P
<geist>
again you can also run it locally with local models
<geist>
then its your power bill
<zid`>
> Those orphans are pre-crushed :P
<zid`>
That's what that's in reference to
<jcoding2>
VS code is really bloated until you find out that you can disable stuff in the extension manager. Just press Ctrl+shift+x and then type in @builtin
<geist>
but hey maybe vibe coding, AI stuff will finally kill vi vs emacs debate
<jcoding2>
Ahh the editor wars.
<nikolar>
jcoding2: running a web browser as a text editor is bloated, no matter how many extensions you disable
<nikolar>
geist: lol how
<geist>
jcoding2: btw you need to stick around more. you keep popping in, asking a question and then dissapearing 10 minutes later
<jcoding2>
I think I just recreated that except VS Code vs. Vim vs. Emacs vs. every other text editor
<zid`>
I think more likely is that the 50 billion dollars of losses openai posts is going upset *some* of the suckers who invested and it's basically all going to disappear, possibly with several large tech companies
<geist>
there are peridos of the day when it's quiet here, mostly based on what time zone folks are in
<jcoding2>
Yeah
<zid`>
That and saying "hellO" to a bunch of strangers isn't a conversation
<nikolar>
geist: to be fair, most "vibe coders" probably don't even know what vim or emacs are
<zid`>
You're better off having something cool to say that someone might wanna respond to
<jcoding2>
Like I go here to ask a question and then all I get is <crickets chirping>
<geist>
the channel is relatively quiet nowadays since it was 10-15 years ago (or even 25 years ago when i joined) since i think most new folks are going to discord
<geist>
but we still keep it alive
<geist>
yeah but we all o the channel 24/7 so sometimse the answer comes a few hours later when someone is around
<jcoding2>
Discord sucks. Mattermost is better bc you can self host it and then you really don't have to pay, unless you get teams or enterprise
<geist>
and then when you sync up you can maybe have a conversation.
* jcoding2
is on from 4 PM to ~7 PM
<geist>
in what time zone?
<jcoding2>
PST
<geist>
most of us are all over the place
<jcoding2>
And that's ok
<geist>
oh good, glad it's okay :)
<nikolar>
lol
<jcoding2>
I have a bouncer through BNC4FREE so I can see the previous logs so if someone says something that I missed I can respond :-)
<jcoding2>
And then there's also the whitequark logs
<geist>
bu tyeah surprisingly not a lot of folks here on the west coast that are active. me, kaz (though haent seen them in a while)
<geist>
the logs have been up and down a lot lately
<jcoding2>
274 users on here meanwhile on my channel just 9 and 3 of them are bots
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<geist>
a fair number of people here will randomly chime in if a topic is appealing. so i think more people are watching than you think
<geist>
of the 274
<jcoding2>
Maybe!
<geist>
anyway if you have osdev questions some folks might engage when they have time
<jcoding2>
I think I might have to port my OS kernel to C++ - it's come the time where I do keyboard input and honestly C++ would make this a lot easier, bc of classes, etc.
<nikolar>
i mean i didn't engage immedietally so there's proff
<nikolar>
*proof
<geist>
sure
<geist>
nikolar: VAAAAX
<nikolar>
VAAAAAAAAAX
<geist>
also heat: RUUUUST
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<jcoding2>
....?
<Ermine>
RUUUUUUUUST
<jcoding2>
Just learning rust by the way if that's what you mean
<nikolar>
Ermine: no
<nikolar>
it's VAAAX
<geist>
VAAAAAAAX
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<nikolar>
geist: any sparc machines?
<Ermine>
nikolar: can I have RUUUUUST on VAAAAAX?
<nikolar>
Ermine: no
<geist>
nikolar: SPARC
<nikolar>
SPARC64
<Ermine>
:(
<geist>
nikolar: of course i have sparc machines
<nikolar>
neat
<geist>
SPAAAAR
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<Ermine>
but actually, gccrs should work, no?
<geist>
i had my ultrasparc running but i turned it off a few days ago because the heat
<jcoding2>
Oh you meant the programming language?
<nikolar>
Ermine: for that, gccrs should first work in general
<nikolar>
and it doesn't
<nikolar>
geist: oh is it that bad
<jcoding2>
What's gccrs?
<jcoding2>
GNU's version of rustc?
<nikolar>
gcc frontend for rust
<nikolar>
heavily in development still
<jcoding2>
Oh
<geist>
the ultra 2 machine i have is about 200W at the wall, continuous
<nikolar>
oh wow
<nikolar>
that's quite bad
<geist>
it was the era before cpus and whatnot had power management, and i think it was BiCMOS
<Ermine>
well, they'll get it working one day
<nikolar>
possibly
<geist>
so it just pulls a solid at the wall. i think the sparcation 20 i have is something like 85W solid too
<nikolar>
doubt it will matter too much though
<jcoding2>
For me personally I just do cargo run which is probably just rustc running for you automatically.
<geist>
most of the older 80s/90s machines i have just run flat out like that
<nikolar>
geist: hey at least it wasn't nmos!
<jcoding2>
SPARC sounds cool.
<Ermine>
nikolar: yeah
<jcoding2>
Is that sun microsystems-related?
<nikolar>
Ermine: alternative implementations make sense when there are standards
<nikolar>
rust doesn't have those
<geist>
it's pretty neat arch. one day i'll sit down and try to port to it but the register window is a real brain teaser
<nikolar>
the standard is whatever rustc does
<geist>
jcoding2: yes. pretty much all sparcs are sun machines, or sun clones. or fujitsu
<nikolar>
gccrs will always be trailing behind
<jcoding2>
Right
<nikolar>
geist: heh i want a sparc machine too
<nikolar>
too bad i live nowhere near them :(
<jcoding2>
geist: Wait could that run UNIX?
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<geist>
personally i find it a little more adorable to play around with the small ones, like a sparcttion lx or so, which are very slow and cute
<nikolar>
it was literally made to run unix jcoding2
<geist>
like 40Mhz microsparc
<Ermine>
nikolar: yeah
<nikolar>
Ermine: i mean who knows, maybe gccrs or something will force them to actually commit to a standard
<nikolar>
until that happens though, it's irrelevant
<jcoding2>
nikolar: Sorry, new to all this stuff
<nikolar>
no problem
<nikolar>
just saying :)
<nikolar>
geist: quaint
<geist>
jcoding2: a lot of us like to talk about non x86 stuff a lot. if anything IMO because x86 is boring
<jcoding2>
UNIX-like operating systems are basically the standard at this point.
<nikolar>
geist: oh i should get around to assembling my rosco 68k
<geist>
it's not boring per se, but it's the defacto thing in general, and that's boring
<nikolar>
i got the 6502 running first try :)
<jcoding2>
geist: Yeah, makes sense. Never really gotten into ARM
<geist>
nikolar: yeah the rosco is fun, and i have LK ported to it
<geist>
at least the 000/010 version
<nikolar>
i have the 030 kit
<nikolar>
with an mmu!
<geist>
i never got a rosco 030. BTW the rosco discord he's a nice guy if you ever want to talk to him
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<nikolar>
(well i have the 030 kit and the cpu with the mmu to be more exact)
<geist>
he even sent me a rosco 6502 for free
<nikolar>
geist: oh i know, i'm in
<jcoding2>
nikolar: Jealous. The closest thing I have to a 6502 is 2 mac pluses and 1 mac 512k
<nikolar>
even seen you post a couple of itmes
<geist>
oh that's right we met up there
<nikolar>
ye
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<nikolar>
jcoding2: lol wanna trade
<jcoding2>
No
<nikolar>
i'll give you the 6502 for any of those :P
<jcoding2>
No.
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<nikolar>
(that was a joke)
<nikolar>
geist: too bad they've stopped selling kits
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<nikolar>
they were quite neat
<geist>
yeah though i think he said he was going to do a new run or something?
<nikolar>
i mean the store page is down from what i can tell
<nikolar>
so eh?
<Ermine>
nikolar: it would be fine if it's Good Enough
<geist>
actually he sent me the plain 030 board somewhere, i just need to buy some of the parts and i already have a few 030s floating around from ebay
<jcoding2>
nikolar: Sometimes I leave the channel when something like that happens and see their response
<nikolar>
geist: oh 030s are easy to come buy
<geist>
right
<nikolar>
i have a few variants just in case
<jcoding2>
I have no idea what a 030 is
<nikolar>
68030
<nikolar>
a cpu
<nikolar>
what do you mean by the response comment though
<jcoding2>
Oh. Response comment is just like what they say.
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<nikolar>
Ermine: who knows
<nikolar>
if nothing else, it's could be an improved bootstrap path
<geist>
jcoding2: well dont do that, it's kinda silly
<geist>
it basially looks like a diss and then people will probablky stop engaging with you
<jcoding2>
geist: ok
<nikolar>
geist: oh btw have you messed with cc65
<geist>
i have!
<geist>
i even have a cc65 based profile on vscode (though i haven't used it in a while)
<nikolar>
wanted to try it with the 6502 board but couldn't quite figure out how to "port" it
<geist>
yeah i was using it with things it was already ported to, ie, apple2 or c64 or commander x16
<geist>
it's pretty good, it doesn't generate the best code, but at least it's not 100% outcalls or anything
<nikolar>
to port, you at least need to implement some things in assembly
<nikolar>
oh i should try llvm-mos
<geist>
it's a mix of outcalls and actual reasonable code, considering the lack of registers and whatnot
<nikolar>
with this thing
<nikolar>
geist: yeah that's fair
<nikolar>
and it doesn't even use the zero page unless you ask for it
<nikolar>
which is quite cool
<jcoding2>
Commander X16!? I watch the 8-bit guy a lot - or at least used to. He stopped posting a lot so I stopped
<jcoding2>
watching his videos
<geist>
yah i have one of the early ones. i need to fire it up again and fiddle with it
<geist>
i think serial #92
<jcoding2>
Ok so the 92nd one as far as I know
<jcoding2>
I don't understand serial numbers
<Ermine>
what about parallel numbers
<jcoding2>
...?
<geist>
the first 100 were a special build
<jcoding2>
Really?
<geist>
wasn't sure if they were going to make more, and they were pricey, so was kinda like a kickstarter thing
<geist>
but i wanted it to succeed
<geist>
so i bought one
<nikolar>
that's the spirit
<jcoding2>
Interesting. I didn't know that they were out yet until people started getting them and I was like "whaaaa?"
<jcoding2>
OSDev is interesting. It's good for a learning project because you get to understand what happens under the hood
<geist>
good, that's a good reason to do it
<geist>
the folks that fail at it are the ones that say 'i wanna osdev so i can beat MSFT and make a better windows'. or somethig like that
<nikolar>
geist: when i get around to assembling my 68k kit, be prepared to be spammed :P
<nikolar>
i want to write an os for it
<geist>
nikolar: kk! yes!
<nikolar>
and 030 should be able to support virtualization
<geist>
i should finish up the mmu code i have for it. i started to write some paging bits for the 040 subset of the 030 on qemu
<nikolar>
so i want to mess with that too
<jcoding2>
On the OSDev Wiki it says that a reason for creating it would be that Linux is bloated or Windows is unstable.
<geist>
well, 040 is actually a *less* powerful mmu than 030, oddly
<geist>
030 is a way overengineered design, they paired it down to what everyone used for 040
<geist>
but since the 040 stuff is a subset of 030 if you write an 040 imoplementation it should mostly work on 030
<nikolar>
ah ok
<geist>
jcoding2: that's a bad reason to get into the hobby, because you will probaly fail. no one has that much time in their day
<geist>
but that's fine. you still learn and hopefully have fun
<nikolar>
did 030 had the weird thing where you have half a page for one layer of page tables
<jcoding2>
geist: Right. I don't have that goal.
<jcoding2>
I'm more like the person who wants to explore how computers work and hopefully get better at my assembly
<geist>
perfect!
<geist>
nikolar: yeah it also lets you realy control closely thepage sizes and whatnot
<nikolar>
how closely
<geist>
even 040 is weird by modern standards in that regard, but i managed to figure out how to configure it so that it looks pretty close to x86/arm/etc
<geist>
nikolar: honestly i forgot, been a year or so since i read it
<geist>
and then i switched to 040 as the main target with the idea that 030 should work with *basicaly* the same design
<nikolar>
yeah i'd probably just set it to be as simple to use and then promtly forget about it
<geist>
right also you dont have to use it
<geist>
you can just run with the mmu off. that's how i'm running LK on the 010 now
<jcoding2>
Because honestly assembly is kind of like a foregin (typo?) language to everyone now because everyone pretty much uses the OS that exists and sticks with it.
<geist>
for the most part sans mmu 010 - 040 is pretty similiar except new instructions and probably fpu stuff and whatnot
<jcoding2>
Except there are some people like klange who are creating a hobby os
<geist>
and heat and sortie
<nikolar>
geist: but no mmu is no fun :(
<jcoding2>
Sorry I was away
<jcoding2>
And that's true
<jcoding2>
geist
<jcoding2>
My OS is called Nova OS
<geist>
afk for a bit, need to run to the store
* geist
waves and poofs
* jcoding2
waits for a respond
* jcoding2
waits for a responce
* jcoding2
waits for a response
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* jcoding2
waves
* jcoding2
waves his
* jcoding2
waves his hand
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
* jcoding2
waves his hand again
<Mutabah>
Uhh....
<Mutabah>
Is that nessesary?
<jcoding2>
I dunno
<jcoding2>
Bye
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<nikolar>
lol what was that
<geist>
yeah...
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<Mutabah>
ugh, network checksums, so fiddly
<geist>
yeah?
<Mutabah>
Working on TCP transmission, first attempt at checksum calculation failed, so now I need to figure out where it went wrong
<geist>
good ol 1s compliment ftw
<Mutabah>
yeah
<geist>
though iirc the main issues i had with the same thing was exactly what went where in the pseudoheader
<Mutabah>
Although, I think the issue is that I've missed some bytes in calculating... sum is off by 0x0014
<geist>
at least for TCP and whatnot
<Mutabah>
I _think_ that's correct
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<Mutabah>
Probably... did find a possible issue with the encoded length
<geist>
is it an odd sized packet and it isn't dealing with the partial 16 bit checksum?
<Mutabah>
Nope, that's all good, migh be a combo of bad length calculation and an incorrectly-placed protocol byte... I should really just look at the RFC and not decade-old C code
<Mutabah>
Hmm... closer, now off by 0xA
<Mutabah>
And that was because I had 0x20 instead of (decimal) 20 as the hard-coded base size of the header
<Mutabah>
Time to go do a democracy
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<jcoding2>
Hello! I'm jcoding2 - person who likes programming/OSDev (especially OSDev) and owner of jcoding2.neocities.org and mhsdeveloper.wordpress.com.
<jcoding2>
My OS is called Nova OS - not much going on there. Trying to load the IDT because I never loaded it on accident :-P
* jcoding2
is the admin of the YouTube channel MHS Gaming - search "MHS Coding and Gaming" and visit me there!
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<albomb0clat>
Hey, is anyone here active?
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<geist>
yep
<Mutabah>
*sigh* to think that a few months ago I was considering that it'd be a weekend's work to get networking up and running
<Mutabah>
I should know better
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<heat>
geist: RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUST
<heat>
Mutabah: haha
<heat>
the gang uses wireshark
<Mutabah>
heat: Hey, I've been using wireshark to check the pcap dumps :)
<heat>
the best kind of problem is stuff like "the dhcp server doesn't take my packets and I don't know why"
<heat>
i've been reading a lot about linux networking internals for work these last few days