<bslsk05>
www.righto.com: The absurdly complicated circuitry for the 386 processor's registers
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<nikolar>
Oh new article dropped
<nikolar>
Neat
<Ermine>
does the title imply that 386 could be made simpler?
<zid`>
no
<zid`>
It implies that they are complicated
<Ermine>
_absurdly_ complicated
<heat>
oh, it's not dead then
<zid`>
If they meant that he could have written it like that with overly
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<zid`>
but he did, he just wanted <superlative> <complicated>
<heat>
it was dead a few days ago
<heat>
Ermine: the absurdly BLOATED circuitry for the 386 processor's registers
<puck>
heat: we had to restart it a few days ago
<heat>
ah, thank you :)
<Ermine>
heat: i mean that if it's possible to reimplement 386 in a better way, it's probably a fun project for someone knowledgeable about silicon stuff
<heat>
maybe
<zid`>
Intel presumably did a pretty good job
<zid`>
You can probably find things, but your main issue will just be that.. what makes a cpu design good comes down VERY much on pragmatics of the exact moment
<heat>
i have a better implementation of the 386 in my computer just now
<zid`>
Whatever litho they were targetting is now long dead, the market is now very different, etc
<zid`>
so it's hard to say what better would even look like
<zid`>
is it 'better' if I make it 1% faster but it would have cost the equivalent of 10 quadrillion dollars of manhours when I throw a cloud provider's compute it re-routing it? Or did they smoke me cus they did it for a couple million
<heat>
yes
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<nikolar>
The fun bit is that amd64 patents expired
<nikolar>
So you can legally reimplement x86
<nikolar>
And sell it!
<nikolar>
Not sure which other extensions, if any, are also patent free
<kof673>
legal just means someone wrote something down somewhere. lawful is a whole different matter
<kof673>
legal == formalism
<kof673>
the axe murderer wore a hockey mask, fair warning. "legal"
<kof673>
legal == without regards to ethics
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<kof673>
legal doesn't even say if someone had the authority to write something down. it just means someone wrote something down.
<humm>
nah, legal usually means lawful
<kof673>
they are 180. the problem is when there is no other term
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<kof673>
if there is only "legal" there is no "law" it is just are you wearing your proper costume or not
<kof673>
and it means you can only do things specifically authorized -- there is no "freedom"
<kof673>
all is "licensed"
<humm>
neither legality nor law have anything directly to do with ethics
<kof673>
agree, i was quoting
<kof673>
that was one definition that distinguished
<kof673>
i agree neither are a good fit for "ethics" but they have been overloaded so many times to oblivion
<kof673>
there were, within past 120 years or so, opposites. i do not deny other definitions/systems
<zid`>
nikolar: You'll still be picking a fight with their legal team
<nikolar>
I'm not picking a fight
<zid`>
I bet they can get you for using their mnemonics under a random trademark, various design patents in the US, etc
<zid`>
I wouldn't wanna try it lol
<nikolar>
I don't have an FPGA large enough lol
<zid`>
legal departments breathe for this shit
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<kof673>
i've seen at least 5 definitions of "rule of law" anyways...changes every 50 years or so perhaps lol
<zid`>
nikolar: We should implement an amd64 decoder in logisim obvs
<nikolar>
Oh yeah
<zid`>
turn it into a risc-v stream lol
<nikolar>
If it doesn't die
<zid`>
I still wanna implement a cpu in logisim at some point
<zid`>
but I'm worried I'll get fairly deep and realize I fucked something up and have to scrap it
<nikolar>
Oh I did that in uni
<zid`>
did they prime you to do it right? easy isa etc
<nikolar>
Eh I forgor
<zid`>
Something similar to 6502 is 'easy' but what happens when you fuck something up and can't fit into 4 t-states? :P
<kof673>
> since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years # that is another story, but why there will never be law there :D
<nikolar>
I mean we microcoded it so it wasn't too bad
<zid`>
yea or you go to write your microcode and realize that you're lacking a signal.. but I guess you could retrofit new signals pretty easily
<nikolar>
I could dig it up later and send you the logisim file if you want
<zid`>
nahh
<zid`>
I know how cpus work, the fun part would be doing it myself
<nikolar>
I didn't do the interrupt stuff I think
<nikolar>
Ran out of time
<zid`>
yea I would do interrupts, 6502 is kind of.. fucky wrt interrupts afaik
<zid`>
cus the design is so tight
<nikolar>
Fucky how
<nikolar>
I forgor, but it rings a bell
<zid`>
there's a bug that can deadlock it and some special transistors to do things afaik
<kof673>
7/235 is a blue moon schedule btw. that is about how often you will see "law" lol
<nikolar>
zid`: oh btw I have a 6502 computer now
<zid`>
oh cute
<zid`>
get me the docs for its i/o
<zid`>
and I'll write you something silly
<GeDaMo>
nikolar: what is it?
<nikolar>
GeDaMo: a rosco 6502
<zid`>
We can’t connect to the server at store.rosco-m68k.com.
<bslsk05>
github.com: rosco_6502/code/firmware/firstboot/defines.asm at main · rosco-6502/rosco_6502 · GitHub
<zid`>
the probably more useful link
<zid`>
the uart is infact at C000
<nikolar>
Yeah, you got the UART chip there too
<zid`>
the uart and the uart?
<nikolar>
The chip model I mean
<zid`>
right
<zid`>
You need to plug something decent into it, like a serial LCD
<nikolar>
It's also got an SD card reader though I think it's bit banged
<zid`>
i2c nuclear bomb
<nikolar>
Lol
<zid`>
yea SD has a bit bang mode that it defaults to which is kind of cool for these low power/speed applications
<zid`>
fun fact, the SD slot on my wii has a non functional internal connection
<zid`>
so I can boot things from SD card, because the bootloader bitbangs
<zid`>
but no real software works because the DMA doesn't work
<nikolar>
Oh lol
<zid`>
so I can't use it on the wii system menu
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<zid`>
I thought the SD adapter I bought was broken so I bought another one, then I researched :(
<kof673>
humm, if you really want to have fun, look up subjective objective...different philosophies swap them lol just depends on the century lol
<nikolar>
zid`: sadge
<zid`>
and now my capture card is dead cus no w10 drivers, fuckin windows
<nikolar>
Lol
<nikolar>
Does it work on Linux?
<zid`>
I hugely doubt it
<zid`>
cus it's FPGA based
<nikolar>
Rip
<nikolar>
Doesn't hurt to try at least
<zid`>
that is to say, it absolutely won't
<zid`>
because it needs firmware that I don't have
<zid`>
It's completely brainless until you program the fpga
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<nikolar>
zid`: doesn't the board have a flash chip for that exact purpose
<nikolar>
So you don't have to program it from the driver
<zid`>
why would it bother
<zid`>
it's a big beefy adc and a big beefy fpga and a pci-e bus controller
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<nikolar>
Fpga dev boards at least usually have the flash chips
<zid`>
because you're developing on them
<zid`>
when you make it for realsies you delete the flash chip and save 5 cents per board
<nikolar>
I guess
<zid`>
avermedia have deleted the entire thing from their website lol
<nikolar>
Nice!
<nikolar>
I used some w7 drivers wifi drivers on w10 once and it worked
<nikolar>
So if you dig them up, give it a try
<zid`>
it used to work
<zid`>
then some windows 10 reiviosn famously broke it
<zid`>
and nobody knows why
<nikolar>
Nice
<nikolar>
Got to love windows
<zid`>
They posted a *google drive* link to the latest release of the driver
<zid`>
to reddit
<zid`>
which is now dead ofc
<nikolar>
Nice! x2
<zid`>
The chinese version of the website got wayback machine crawled at least lol?
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<zid`>
H727_AVerMCS_1.7.9.97.17090701_Drv_1.54.x.42_Installer.exe I still have this at least
<Ermine>
btw, wacom's configuration utility string encoding is fucked up
<zid`>
If I had multiple PCs and less adhd I might have ported it to v4l
<Ermine>
and it was crashing until i've run it in compatibility mode
<Ermine>
that single time when compatibility mode actually helped
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<kof673>
humm, for context, webster's 1913 before the merger :D http://dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=lawful you can say de jure versus de facto too, formal, informal...subjective objective lol LAWFUL, adj. Compatible with the will of a judge having jurisdiction. devil's dictionary predicted they would merge lol
<bslsk05>
dict.org: dict.org- lawful
<kof673>
don't want to discuss, offtopic, just to show i wasn't making that up :D
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<nikolar>
zid`: fun!
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<zid`>
screen and push buttons does make it seem pretty usefult bh
<nikolar>
Not that you can get my thing anyway
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<zid`>
the kicad files were in the repo weren't they
<nikolar>
Yup
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<zid`>
The fact anybody sold it at all was surprising
<zid`>
most of these things ship, as, at most, kits
<nikolar>
The guy who made it already had a shop
<nikolar>
So might as well
<nikolar>
It was a kit
<zid`>
was it all throughhole or did you have to smd
<zid`>
I've never really done any smd
<zid`>
doesn't seem hard but I'd want some good tweezers
<nikolar>
Through hole
<nikolar>
I've never done smd either
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<zid`>
If you order from pcb way you can ask them to include solder masks which is nice
<zid`>
$15 though oof
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<zid`>
$10 if you pick a different type at least. $5 for a board, $10 for a stencil though is funny
<nikolar>
Lol
<nikolar>
Wonder why's it's more expensive
<zid`>
maybe they just have fewer metal laser cutters than they do capacity to make boards
<zid`>
but material wise you'd think it'd be cheaper, so I expect they're just upcharging for some reason
<zid`>
also I think that's *five* boards, but one stencil
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<nikolar>
oh yeah that's true
<nikolar>
still
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<agent314>
so i have pi pico 2 w (2350) hopefully delivered tomorrow
<agent314>
i still dont understand what's going on but it seems like it has four cores? two ARM and two RISC-V? that feels like an april fools joke but whatever.
<heat>
uhhh no
<agent314>
has there been any attempt to install xv6 on it?
<heat>
it has 4 cortex-a53 cores and they all suck
<heat>
wait no
<heat>
the pico is different
<agent314>
"Featuring dual Arm Cortex-M33 and RISC-V Hazard3 cores,"
<bslsk05>
www.amazon.com: Amazon.com: Pi Pico 2 WH Basic Kit - Pre Soldered Header, RP2350 Microcontroller Board, Bluetooth 5.2, WiFi, BLE, Dual-Core ARM & RISC-V 150MHz CPU, 520KB RAM, 4MB Flash, 26 GPIO : Electronics
<heat>
tom's hardware says "or" so either ARM or riscv
<agent314>
does anyone know... why? why not four cores RISCV only?
<zid`>
because otherwise it'd be useless?
<agent314>
oh not much is runnning on RISCV currently eh
<zid`>
It's a thing to let you mess with risc-v on a real system, without having to make it useless by making it risc-v only
<heat>
"The unique dual-core, dual-architecture capability of RP2350 allows users to choose between a pair of industry-standard Arm Cortex-M33 cores, and a pair of open-hardware Hazard3 cores"
<heat>
yep, "or" confirmed
<heat>
it's a dual-core arm OR riscv
<zid`>
It's a quad core with 2 of each, but you bootloader select which pair starts
<zid`>
afaik
<heat>
it is not
<agent314>
is esp32 riscv?
<agent314>
it seems like it is
<zid`>
It's not what, heat
<heat>
oh wait, zid is right
<heat>
fuck me, that is weird
<heat>
"RP2350 includes a pair of open-hardware Hazard3 RISC-V cores which can be substituted at boot time for the Cortex-M33 cores. Our boot ROM can even auto-detect the architecture for which a second-stage binary has been built and reboot the chip into the appropriate mode"
<zid`>
confidently incorrect heat
<agent314>
but i dont know what's going on anymore at all
<heat>
the rpi website specs are worded weird :(
<zid`>
everybody described it as a quad core, when I first heard about it
<zid`>
but that sort of maybe implies that you could run all four, and you can't
<zid`>
you run 2 or 2
<agent314>
could you MAKE it run four?
<zid`>
there's no real pithy way to describe it I guess
<agent314>
the spec doesnt seem to provide any official way for it
<heat>
this Hazard3 core is some rpi's engineer's hobby project
<heat>
this is really fucking stupid lol
<nikolar>
which part heat
<nikolar>
and is it really?
<heat>
yes it is
<agent314>
rp2350A: 30 GPIO, 7x7 QFN60
<zid`>
If they think it'll pay for the tape-out then that's all they have to care about I guess
<zid`>
they can literally slap 2 risc-v cores on in 20 mins for free
<heat>
"The Hazard 3 RISC-V cores on the RP2350 were designed by Raspberry Pi’s own Luke Wren in his spare time – and as they’re open source, you can download the design files yourself and start poking around in the very same chip that will eventually be in use on millions of units out in the wild"
<nikolar>
apparently, the rp2350 is a pretty good controller
<nikolar>
assuming you ignore the rv bits
<zid`>
tiny tiny change to the boot rom to twiddle a register after checking 1 bit in the elf
<nikolar>
honestly, if a company i work for wanted to use my designs in the chip they are making, i'd be up for it
<zid`>
The official board has literally nothing on it
<nikolar>
no matter how shitty the design is kek
<heat>
nikolar: if you buy a SLES license now you might get the next update which will allow you to pick between linux and onyx as the kernel (this is a joke)
<nikolar>
kek
<zid`>
it's an rp2350 die and a.. regulator or whatever
<nikolar>
yeah
<nikolar>
what were you expecting
<zid`>
have you seen an rpi before
<nikolar>
it's not a rpi
<nikolar>
it's a microcontroller
<zid`>
yes it is?
<zid`>
It's just a pi 'pico'
<zid`>
which is a nothing-on-a-board version
<nikolar>
they are reusing their arm computer brand for a microcontroller
<heat>
it's not a typical rpi
<nikolar>
it's a very different class of devices
<zid`>
heat: tell him two more times
<zid`>
I can tell he understands the difference, he's saying it out loud
<zid`>
he seems to know all of the facts, but he just can't connect them in his face
<heat>
it's not only a nothing-on-a-board version
<heat>
it is a radically different core
<heat>
aka i agree with nikolar ,sorry
<zid`>
what
<nikolar>
wow heat, we agree!
<zid`>
you agree that nikolar disagrees that I am surprised?
<zid`>
I don't even understand why nikolar won't *let* me be surprised
<zid`>
that they had done this
<heat>
nikolar: shut the fuck up and buy a SLES license
<nikolar>
ah i guess we disagree once again
<heat>
hostile sales tactics are my forte
<nikolar>
you must be pretty bad then
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<zid`>
"It's a pi so I expected it to have pi things on it" "well it doesn't" "I know that, I said I was surprised" "Yes but it doesn't" "I KNOW"
<zid`>
heat: "I agree"
<zid`>
die
<heat>
i don't fucking know boss
<nikolar>
zid`: well you didn't really phrase it that way
<zid`>
all of you
<heat>
hey fuck you too
<nikolar>
a typical friendly chat in #osdev ^
<zid`>
nikolar: In what universe would I expect an rpi to be an MCU?
<heat>
anyway if anyone got some version of a xv6-like kernel i would be pretty impressed
<zid`>
*expect*
<nikolar>
heat: i don't think it has an mmu
<zid`>
does it even have ram
<nikolar>
so you'd have to modify it quite a bit
<heat>
given this core literally sucks and has half a meg of SRAM
<Mutabah>
Well, you can use a rpi as a microcontroller
<heat>
yeah
<nikolar>
zid`: it's probably got like 64k or something lol
<zid`>
yea but is it ram ram
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<heat>
500 KiB of SRAM
<zid`>
or is it cache
<nikolar>
ooh 500k
<zid`>
addressable cache
<nikolar>
they are spoiling us
<nikolar>
zid`: it's on die ram
<nikolar>
call it whatever you want
<zid`>
yea addressable cache then
<nikolar>
you can attach an spi ram chip to it!
<zid`>
if I can't sniff it and do address decoding etc, it's not ram sorry
<zid`>
need spi ram then yea
<nikolar>
i wouldn't be surprised if someone made a nommu xv6 version
<nikolar>
you'd just have to find it
<heat>
i would
<heat>
it sounds like hell
<nikolar>
btw, heat, do nommu elfs have like a relocation table or something
<nikolar>
for applying offsets
<heat>
they use something called fdpic I think
<heat>
which is a complete mystery to me
<nikolar>
neat!
<heat>
seriously hope nommu fucking dies in a fire
<nikolar>
lol why
<heat>
it's trash and baggage
<nikolar>
i mean running linux on nommu mcus sounds fun