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<klys>
then again, i keep having to restart the vnc viewer
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<kof673>
> i feel like a boomer who's never seen a computer # that's the thing though, a virtual terminal is simulating a real hw physical terminal
<kof673>
cover song of a remix of a cover song of a remix of a cover song of a remix, many things are like this
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<kof673>
> a new guide-star was established as Vega in Lyra. In other words, when Cygnus sank the tortoise or the turtle offered its broad back for a landing place amid the waters of the deluge.
<kof673>
"this here island's really a turtle shell!" secret of mana video game cover song of a cover song of a remix of a cover song
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<kof673>
sometimes the "ark" was a turtle shell or coconut shell...remixes all the way down :D
<Mutabah>
kof673: You know... I'm never really sure what you're talking about, or if you're talking to someone who is somehow on my ignore list (... which is empty, afaik)
<Mutabah>
What are you on about?
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<zid>
Mutabah: he's schizophrenic
<Mutabah>
Possibly
<Mutabah>
Although, would be nice if they didn't ramble into the channel
<zid>
well, they don't know they're doing it
<zid>
you either ignore them or ban them
<kof673>
see scrollback, terminals and turtles :/
<kof673>
this indicates a quote ">" > i feel like a boomer who's never seen a computer
<kof673>
and i was explaining the meaning of "turtles all the way down" thanks for not gaslighting
<kof673>
that was a hieroglyph, it wasn't written
<kof673>
turtle of earth
<Mutabah>
Huh. So that's waht you meant, wasn't the clearest way of providing context.
<kof673>
its fine, people get mad if you highlight them though
<kof673>
gei st says ">" maybe doesn't show up on some clients
<kof673>
so, virtual terminals now instead of real terminals, just another simulation
<kof673>
much like the turtle gets endlessly remixed
<kof673>
that was all
<kof673>
so you can see the oz and iz a's comment, instead of rushing to slander
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<kof673>
now if someone would like to open another topic, great :D
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<kof673>
most people probably haven't seen a real physical hw terminal, that was all i was getting at, that is normal
<Mutabah>
Cool, cool
<kof673>
its conway's law -- old philosophies tend to be circular, modern is likely linear time :D that maybe explains :D
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<Jari-->
howdy people
<Mutabah>
o/
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<Jari-->
Mutabah hows it going, I am fine
* Mutabah
is away (Foood)
<Mutabah>
It's a Monday :/ but I got my kernel semi-running on real hardware yesterday, so there's that
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<kof673>
a good example is carriage return -- if you know the original, when there really was a physical carriage to return, then it makes sense -- because the hw worked that way. the software/api/etc. was molded to fit what the real physical hw could do
<kof673>
not saying you should try to reinvent things from first principles, but ......when it is all virtualized, it is layers removed
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<kof673>
someone who saw the real physical hw would pick up instantly what it was...someone else who never saw a carriage before, might still be guessing :D
<kof673>
it is one and the same -- at 2 different phases, 70 years apart or whatever :D
<Mutabah>
kof673: Interesting points - but that discussion has been and gone. Please stop
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<MelMalik>
I'm 25 and I have dragged the carriage to the right
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<zid>
nikolar: wanna play irl pokémon?
<zid>
We train some crows to attack children and take their money.
<vdamewood>
zid: Reminds me an idea I once had to try to get crows to 'trade' money for food.
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<Ermine>
those eee pcs are cheap like dirt, while thinkpads x200 are probably becoming unobtanium
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sdomi is now known as domi
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<Jari-->
re
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<kof673>
Mutabah, sure, it is just depressing everyone wants a unix clone, and tries to copy everyone else. conway's law this is quintessential endless baggage. but to each their own :D
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<mjg>
wankers
<heat>
who's this
<heat>
are you the EFI guy
<zid>
new phone
<mjg>
well yes indeed
<mjg>
i refer all your support questions to RH tho
<sortiecat>
hello mjg
<sortiecat>
how goes mjging
<mjg>
same old
<mjg>
i ditched bsd
<mjg>
so kind of new, but turns out linux is crap of the same caliber
<mjg>
how is sortix doing
<sortiecat>
I made it to the second round of nlnet funding review, hopefully I'll pass it soon and get paid to osdev :)
<mjg>
:O
<mjg>
noice
<mjg>
although tbh there are easier ways to get paid to osdev
<sortiecat>
I finished up my ISO 9660 filesystem driver the other day. I even fixed Y2038 and Y2156 issues in the Linux ISO 9660 filesystem driver. The whole filesystem is quite a vibe but I kinda like it, at least it's read only :)
<mjg>
assuming you are ok with linux
<heat>
sortie: HONZA
<heat>
sortiecat: HONZA
<nikolar>
oh mjg is alive
<sortiecat>
One does not end up in this channel if one is ok with Linux
<nikolar>
long time no see
<sortiecat>
Except heat
<mjg>
nikolar: well yes indeed
<mjg>
sortiecat: did you hear that wanker is at suse?
<sortiecat>
heat, HONZA
<heat>
we have a couple more linuxers
<mjg>
sortiecat: worse, he is a reviewer to some of the mm stuff now
<mjg>
in the upstream kernal
<nikolar>
a big shot
<sortiecat>
heat, my patch hasn't been reverted from linux-next yet <3
<heat>
(nothing's reverted from linux-next)
<sortiecat>
mjg, we like heat tho
<sortiecat>
he cool
<heat>
do we?
<mjg>
heat is the opposite of cool mon
<zid>
mmmm
<zid>
somewhere in the middle
<mjg>
innit
<sortiecat>
mjg, right now I'm working on my FAT filesystem driver. I just finished up my basic EFI support (no EFI runtime services support initially, but ESP works, grub installs, FAT works). I just need to polish the FAT driver and make it fully correct
<sortiecat>
calling heat cool is a sick burn
<sortiecat>
or should I say frost bite
<heat>
you need to polish the FAT driver?
<heat>
what's next? you're going to czech it?
<nikolar>
maybe portugese it next?
<zid>
heat: 1/10
<zid>
That's your new ranking.
<heat>
oh cmon it was pretty funny
<sortiecat>
heat, 3/10
<sortiecat>
heat, if nothing is reverted from linux-next, what's the point?
<nikolar>
i concur with zid
<zid>
not everything gets merged
<heat>
patches can be dropped from linux-next
<sortiecat>
Does it reset to torvalds master every now and then?
<zid>
people pick up patches.. sometimes!
<mjg>
it gets rebased daily
<heat>
linux-next is an autogenerated branch from torvalds and all the maintainers' for-next branches
<mjg>
so it kind of converges to master, except people keep modifying it
<sortiecat>
Oh that's clever
<sortiecat>
Is it force pushed to, or proper merges?
<mjg>
dawg
<mjg>
it is so bad you can't even git pull it or git goes crazy
<mjg>
you have to git fetch and switch to the new daily tag
<nikolar>
i mean it's autogenerated
<mjg>
not a problem, but it does trip people over
<nikolar>
it's going to be jank
<sortiecat>
I assume it avoids merge conflicts, more or less, since maintainers own different directories
<mjg>
there could be a marker or something which tells git to not even try instead
<zid>
octopus merge everybody and then just email anyone who conflicts
<mjg>
sortiecat: merge conflicts are constant and sometimes resolved wrong
<mjg>
classic is new #define s added with duplicated values
<mjg>
someone is full time managing this crapper
<sortiecat>
Sounds about right with this kind of set up
<sortiecat>
At least this is tech based, I was fearing it was like a manual thing, which would be worse
<mjg>
i think the model itself is decent tho
<mjg>
kind of bypasses the "master branch is a dumping ground" problem
<mjg>
by maintaing a dedicated branch to serve that purpose
<sortiecat>
Most of the Linux craziness comes from the insane amount of work being done in the repository
<sortiecat>
Any lesser organization would fail with that amount of work being done. Linux people, tho, they invent git
<nikolar>
which is unavoidable for the project at that scale
<mjg>
the real downside from my POV is that it is expected that master will have regressions
<mjg>
which will get fixed up with subsequent RC tags
<nikolar>
sortiecat: correction, linux person
<mjg>
kind of a bummer, but i don't see a better way
<zid>
They prefer 'linux catgirl'
<sortiecat>
I like the RC model. Stabilization is important
<nikolar>
did you ask torvalds or you just assume zid
<mjg>
what happened to "master is always ship ready"
<mjg>
:d
<zid>
why do you think RMS is so eager to distance himself from linux? having to go on about gnu/linux
<sortiecat>
So who tests linux-next, consumes it?
<mjg>
it is a subset of developers + a bunch of CI
<sortiecat>
I'm hoping that distros might have something going that rebases their patches on top of linux-next and runs CI or something, so it actually catches issues early
<zid>
supposed to be a dogfood branch I think
<heat>
SUSE does
<zid>
but the CI tools and shit all run on -next
<sortiecat>
But sounds like massive churn to catch and report all the issues that would pop up in linux-next and identify them
<zid>
buildbot etc will tell you if you fucked MIPS
<heat>
CI tools don't just run on next
<nikolar>
that's why it's there
<mjg>
realistically there is tons of breakage
<zid>
nobody said they did heat
<mjg>
some of which is resolved by next day
<mjg>
and some lingers for weeks man
<mjg>
for example they broke perf in my setup
<mjg>
would reliably crash the kernel
<mjg>
git, being a POS tooling that it is, only bisected to a patchset
<sortiecat>
mjg, 'master can always be shipped' is impossible, at scale especially. What you can do, though, is strive to always only put production-ready ready-to-ship code on master. But mistakes will be made and you will need a stabilization period to catch issues and ship a proven release branch
<mjg>
this is what i said
<mjg>
just sayin, it irks me
<mjg>
:p
<zid>
hey nobody said it has to *work* just because you shipped it
<zid>
look at AAA game devs
<sortiecat>
It depends on your quality control
<nikolar>
zid: 100gig updates on day one
<zid>
It's a sliding scale from "We're going to fly this on a rocket" to "Version 2.0 should enable support for people with monitors" (Ubisoft)
<nikolar>
lol
<mjg>
does sortix maintaing shippable master at all times?
<sortiecat>
I did release engineering for the Dart programming language. We had a whole multi branch process that led to increasing stabilization between main, dev, beta, and stable -- each level allowing patching the previous work as issues are discovered and fixed
<mjg>
maintain
<mjg>
for example openbsd maintains "unusable at any point" model
<heat>
haha
<mjg>
well to be fair, they partially follow a variation of the -next model. namely they publish binary snapthos with experimental changes
<mjg>
but only for stuff they consider risky
<mjg>
you might think this sounds like a branch material
<mjg>
but they claim branches are for wussies
<sortiecat>
mjg, actually, kinda! I have a 'staging' branch for my 'volatile' builds where I test out all the new code for days/weeks/months/years until it's proven stable and good, after which I merge it to main. Regressions do happen, but there is a _lot_ of automated testing of stagign. For instance, it has to rebuild itself 100% natively every night, pass bootstrap tests, pass automatic installation tests, pass tests upgrading the previous release to the new
<mjg>
:d
<sortiecat>
one, etc
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<mjg>
while nice, this is kind of the bare minimum for an OS innit
<mjg>
not throwing shade at fuchsia
<mjg>
for not being shelf-hosted :p
<nikolar>
kek
<sortiecat>
No I will absolutely throw shade at Fushsia
<mjg>
:p
<mjg>
you are worse man than me
<Mutabah>
But Fuschia is already a shade :)
<heat>
we've seen 3 spellings of the word already
<sortiecat>
And Haiku, Redox, Managarm, and all my lovely competitors whom I think are really cool. But I do run my own infra natively and run my own OS on the website, in a lighthearted attempt to make them look a bit bad and raise the bar and invite them to challenge me here :P
<heat>
in like, 1 minute
<sortiecat>
Fuschia is a fully funded project tho so they can take some shade :) But I will only send love to the community projects
<heat>
it's fuchsia
<heat>
fuchsia
<heat>
fuchsia
<heat>
fuchsia
<zid>
Fuschisia
<nikolar>
> Fushsia
<nikolar>
lel
<zid>
oh I was close
<zid>
"fuck SIA" whoever SIA is
<mjg>
sortiecat: i'm gonna throw shade at the VPs
<mjg>
sortiecat: not the v ictims ;)
<sortiecat>
IF Google wants me to spell it correctly they might still have my banking detail
<heat>
OH
<nikolar>
zid: isn't sia a pop singer
<nikolar>
sortiecat: kek
<heat>
fusia kernal
<mjg>
Debian GNUk/fuchsia
<mjg>
is that even possible
<sortiecat>
Fun fact I do not have any Sia stories except that one time I accidentally listened to one of her songs at 100% volume
<sortiecat>
nightly.log is 444338 lines, across 2554803 processes
<mjg>
aight mon i see a likely immediate speed up. you don't do adaptive spinning in your mutexen
<sortiecat>
Lots of stuff I don't do
<mjg>
should be ez fixable
<sortiecat>
Shared memory is a huge speed up
<mjg>
how many cpus do you use to build this?
<sortiecat>
Sortix is only single CPU so spinning isn't too much of a concern atm I don't think
<sortiecat>
But yeah totally legit a lot of stuff to optimize
<mjg>
oh
<sortiecat>
One
<mjg>
well it is a moral failing to be slower than openbsd
<mjg>
just sayin
<sortiecat>
I do run a bunch of single CPU qemus in parallel
<sortiecat>
I don't subscribe to OpenBSD morals
<sortiecat>
mjg, my concern at the moment is not performance, but functionality
<nikolar>
the more functionality you add, the harder to switch to smp it gets
<nikolar>
so you know
<sortiecat>
I'm making the operating system base from which everything will grow. Being installable, upgradeable, online, etc.
<mjg>
if this is aiming to be a general purpose OS, we are 2 decades past pretending multicore can be ignored
<mjg>
as in it is a mandatory problem to deal wit
<sortiecat>
The kernel has been built, more or less, with SMP in mind. Most of the code is already fully preemptive and multi threaded and it's only a few limited places where SMP support will go in
<sortiecat>
mjg, sure
<sortiecat>
I'm also just one person
<sortiecat>
I also gotta ship, you know? I'm only like 9 years overdue
<mjg>
look mon, i'm just offended there is an OS slower than openbsd
<sortiecat>
I also don't care for your rudeness
<mjg>
relax mate
<sortiecat>
I will build SMP at a later date :)
<mjg>
i'm breaking balls
<mjg>
do you plan to rust it?
<sortiecat>
There's _endless_ stuff I need to build. I can't do it all, at once. I have to prioritize and I have done so
<sortiecat>
Rust is redox
<sortiecat>
I would port Rust but they need to solve their god damn bootstrap problem :P
<sortiecat>
I do have a ton of other languages, such as python, lua, perl, ruby, php, awk, etc.
<heat>
i think he means the kernel
<heat>
hey you could get INFINITE FUNDING with that one
<sortiecat>
If you want rust kernel, go play with redox :) They are nice and cool person
<sortiecat>
redox is definitely doing that, heat :P Also who I got the funding idea from lol
<GeDaMo>
"[Media] The GCC compiler backend can now fully bootstrap the Rust compiler!"
<sortiecat>
no92_leo, that's really cool with modesetting btw :)
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<nikolar>
sortiecat: write 10 lines of useless rust into your kernel and get infinite funds
<nikolar>
you're welcome
<sortiecat>
no92_leo, my priority isn't to be a desktop OS (beyond mere basics). It seems way too hard to achieve all the stuff needed to make that an awesome experience, and people will keep demanding more, and there's already a bunch of systems doing awesome hobby GUI experiences. I'm going more for the server / developer market as I think that's way easier and more impactful
<nikolar>
sortiecat: no offense, but who's demanding anything from sortix lol
<sortiecat>
GeDaMo, nice :)
<sortiecat>
nikolar, apparently mjg :P
<nikolar>
i don't think he's demanding
<heat>
i demanded to meet mjg in brno but that didn't happen
<nikolar>
just comparing you to openbsd
<heat>
it is what it is
<sortiecat>
I have the best Theo quotes about Sortix
<no92_leo>
no one should be demanding anything, we have an (inofficial) motto of "be the change you want to see"
<no92_leo>
it's just cool to get stuff working/ported/whatever on your own OS :^)
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<mjg>
sortiecat: i only make demands of my emplyees, of which i have none
<mjg>
that and heat
<sortiecat>
:P
<nikolar>
mjg: yeah demand whatever you want from heat
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<bslsk05>
doc.cat-v.org: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (aka utah2000 or utah2k)
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<mjg>
lol
<mjg>
i had not seen it in liek 20 years for real
<kof673>
there's no wrong answer, i mean do you even consider that a real issue, now, or then, or anywhen
<kof673>
or it just "research" versus "production"
<kof673>
he is sort of saying geezer code survives lol
<kof673>
in a roundabout way lol
<mjg>
this is similar to framing any activity as something worthless
<mjg>
you watched a tv show? you mean you stared at a screen?
<mjg>
in the same vain, unix from the 90s is the the same as unix today, innit
<mjg>
even though a lot of the problems remain
<mjg>
well tell you what, show me an exampel of an innovation and i will reframe as lack of innovation the same way he does above
<mjg>
just give me something
<kof673>
good answer ;D
<nikolar>
mjg: rcu
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<mjg>
rcu is poor man's garbage collection!
<nikolar>
kek
<nikolar>
garbage collection then
<mjg>
garbage collection is a reesponse to a self-induced problem
<nikolar>
REEsponse
<mjg>
if OS research was real we would have languages which don't produce garbage
<nikolar>
lol
<mjg>
good thing plan9 innovated itself into obscurity
<kof673>
lol ^^^^^ i just figure decide what you care about, decide what you don't, where you will break "compatibility" or not
<mjg>
can you believe you use that fuck with mouse + keyboard and the guy claims innovation
<nikolar>
indeed
<mjg>
fucken 1G internet?
<mjg>
it's merely an extension of a 56k modem
<mjg>
get over youserlf
<heat>
i think you're completely missing the point
<mjg>
you just get to download your derivative OS clone faster
<mjg>
heat: or you are. perhaps you did not spend enough time reading stuff of the sort
<mjg>
you get a geezer with an axe to grind
<mjg>
and then you get loloargs to justify it
<heat>
it is absolutely pointless to innovate if the inertia of the industry stops you from having any sort of chance of success
<zid>
I wish language innovation was real, fuck me
<zid>
C89 still the best language for 99% of things
<heat>
and currently, that's what's happening
<heat>
you can say "lol maybe plan9 was shit lol"
<mjg>
but what constitutes innovation
<mjg>
is the shift to cloud innovation?
<heat>
but plan9 would never have any substantial adoption because of, again, inertia
<mjg>
cheap virtualisation -- innovation or not?
<heat>
a new operating system, or a new operating system paradigm
<mjg>
cause for all i know the industry innovated a lot
<heat>
i think that's what he's getting at
<zid>
SYSTEMS INNOVATION happens, but it just happens in a big repo called linux.git
<mjg>
see the table under Systems Research's Contribution to the Boom
<heat>
yeah but does it really?
<mjg>
so by that standard, in 2020
<zid>
like, nobody in the 70s had drivers that split interrupts across 200 cores using fancy interrupt routing hardware and software algos
<mjg>
are you putting in Unix or not
<mjg>
and claiming computing has not changed
<zid>
cus they didn't need it, now we do, so they added it to linux
<zid>
nvme go brr
<heat>
linux 15 years ago is somewhat similar to linux now
<heat>
you can say that hardware has gotten fancier
<zid>
but also hardware has *mostly* also ossified
<heat>
and maybe the way to write things got fancier
<zid>
more cores is more common and erm.. something something
<heat>
but the paradigm is the same
<mjg>
so for example observability took a massive leap forward -- is that an innovatin?
<zid>
sandy bridge still the best cpu ever released
<heat>
mjg: it is
<mjg>
you get autoscaling of services
<heat>
we've had a few breakthroughs in paradigm - eBPF, io_uring, XDP for a few examples
<mjg>
in THE CFLOUD
<mjg>
is that an innovation
<heat>
that's not system software
<mjg>
it affects how people use systems mofer
<mjg>
in fact underneath there could have been plan9
<heat>
ok but what's the point in using plan9
<mjg>
and webdev-facing cloud would be identical
<heat>
if you can just use linux
<heat>
or, if you're a normal person, windows/macOS
<mjg>
but if people use the system very differently today than they used to in the 90s
<mjg>
then maybe there was innovation
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<heat>
there is no money in operating systems development
<mjg>
admittedly, it may be 80s -> 90s was indeed a big nothing burger
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<mjg>
now i wonder
<mjg>
>
<mjg>
If systems research was relevant, we'd see new operating systems and new languages making inroads into the industry, the way we did in the '70s and '80s.
<mjg>
with RUST
<mjg>
would he make the same claim?
<mjg>
is rust an innovation or just more of the same
<heat>
rust is definitely an innovation
<mjg>
i can partially agree with "we see a thriving software industry that largely ignores research, and a research community that writes papers rather than software.
<mjg>
"
<kof673>
i agree with all the above, > Linux people, tho, they invent git just figure shouldn't be afraid of breaking something if there is a need
<mjg>
ok, by "Microsoft, mostly. Exercise: Compare 1990 Microsoft software with 2000." i'm guessing the author would concede DOCKER'n shit are in fact innovation
<zid>
(in masochism)
<mjg>
not an endorsement of the article or DOCKER
<mjg>
but in that spirit did not x11 wms improve enough in the 90s to claim a similar win
<mjg>
to windows
<kof673>
eh, i only expected one line response, it was just to gauge if it is philosophical dribblings with no connection to reality or not
<mjg>
look mon, i skimmed it after 2 decades and i'm in a ranty mood
<mjg>
besides, you asked
<mjg>
:d
<kof673>
its not a criticism, just surprised, ltns
<mjg>
here is something relevant mon
<mjg>
and old joke i find relevant
<mjg>
physicists need millions of dollars for equipment
<mjg>
mathematicians only need a desk, pen, paper and a trash can
<mjg>
philosophers don't even need the trash can
<mjg>
same goes for people writing CS-related papers
<kof673>
philosophy got rewritten, it was once tangible :D
<mjg>
it's literally a geezer with an exe to grind and framing something in a manner which supports his claim
<mjg>
read any security paper, same shit
<mjg>
well not *any*, but enough :p
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<mjg>
read people who claim the entire world would be blackjack and hookers with LISP won
<mjg>
s/with/if/
<bslsk05>
<mjg*> read people who claim the entire world would be blackjack and hookers if LISP won
<mjg>
good bot
<mjg>
> Linux may fall into the Macintosh trap: smug isolation leading to (near) obsolescence.
<mjg>
at least this did not happen :P
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<nikolar>
mjg: for neither lol
<kof673>
re: rust breadth versus depth, i don't think those are necessarily opposite, but you will get a different result if you piecemeal replace versus try to rustify all, etc. that is mostly what i interpret the paper as
<kof673>
or even ban other languages/etc. a different culture will emerge
<kof673>
aside from any technical stuff
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<zid>
lisp nerds are funny
<zid>
"we had that tech in the 70s!" being their main refrain
<zid>
okay and if lisp is so good, why does nobody use it?
<zid>
oh right, cus it's fucking insane and can't be compiled
<zid>
forgot for a moment there
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<kof673>
i'd say indirectly, but that is bsd versus "just a kernel" :D > SYSTEMS INNOVATION happens, but it just happens in a big repo called linux.git
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