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<beach>
Is VALUES the only operator that can produce multiple values directly? By "directly" I mean that I exclude operators that produce multiple values only because the corresponding form contains a sub-form that produces multiple values, like PROGN or MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1.
<gilberth>
Curious question. VALUES is not a special operator. Otherwise VALUES-LIST comes to mind, but that's a function just like VALUES.
<beach>
I never said the operator had to be special.
<beach>
Yes, VALUES-LIST would work, but it can be defined as (apply #'values <the-list>).
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<gilberth>
How about (defun values (&rest values) (values-list values))?
<beach>
How about it?
<gilberth>
You said "but it can be defined as ..". I pointed out that VALUES can be defined in term of VALUES-LIST and you could consider the latter as being more primitive. If you wish. One of the many instances where one thing can be defined in terms of another and you can pick which one you consider as given.
<beach>
I am willing to use either one, or both as candidates for what I am looking for. Are there any others?
<semz>
Arguably, FLOOR satisfies the definition. ,(floor 3 2) has no subforms that produce multiple values.
<ixelp>
(floor 3 2) => 1; 1
<gilberth>
I can't think of any other which would let you produce multiple values at will.
<semz>
so I think the definition needs some tuning
<beach>
semz: Yes, I see your point.
<beach>
I'll work on tuning the definition.
<beach>
Clearly, any function call might produce multiple values, because a function can be defined to call VALUES as its last form.
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<gilberth>
Let me try to rephrase. Suppose you take away VALUES and VALUES-LIST, I cannot think of how to write a function FOO that behaves just like VALUES.
<beach>
Yes, that seems to be one way to phrase it.
<jackdaniel>
if you hint at the context of tgis deliberation it may be helpful. i.e caller often ignores all but the first value
<jackdaniel>
and that's sometimes an optimization opportunity depending on a runtime
<beach>
Was that for me? I think I'll follow the advice by semz first. It is a bit tricky to give a description of the context at this point.
<jackdaniel>
yes, that was for you
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<beach>
It might be enough to say that multiple values can be produced only as a result of a function call.
<beach>
I'll work on that hypothesis.
<beach>
In other words, there is no special operator or standard macro that produces multiple values in any way other than by calling a function.
<beach>
I am not saying that as a fact, but as a hypothesis that I will check.
<beach>
No, it returns the values that its first form returns.
<jackdaniel>
maybe it does not produce itself, but it must stash and pop them
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<gilberth>
beach: IGNORE-ERRORS is a macro and produces multiple values.
<beach>
jackdaniel: Sure, that's a different issue.
<jackdaniel>
in other words it manipulates values
<beach>
gilberth: I'll check that. Thanks!
<jackdaniel>
that's why I say that without context it is rather vague
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<beach>
gilberth: Wouldn't IGNORE-ERRORS ultimately have to expand to a combination of special operators and function calls?
<beach>
*special forms
<gilberth>
beach: Sure.
<beach>
gilberth: That's good enough for me.
<beach>
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
<gilberth>
And there's SETF. But just as IGNORE-ERRORS can can work without anything behind your back. Just like IGNORE-ERRORS.
<beach>
Yes, I am investigating SETF in particular.
<gilberth>
On that note, I always find it a bit curious that MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND is not a special operator but MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1 is. Why? I mean given MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL one can implement MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1 too.
<beach>
Yes, some of those choices seem arbitrary.
<gilberth>
Indeed. I mean recognizing and optimizing (multiple-value-call (lambda (a b c &rest ignore) ...) ...) isn't entirely trivial.
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<beach>
I agree.
<beach>
How would you implement MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1 using MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL? Perhaps I could figure it out if I thought about it for a while, but this is the end of the day and I am getting tired.
<gilberth>
In fact CCL can't do that. But the compiler knows about multiple-value-bind. I noticed that when I tested my macro expander. I ran code through it before compiling and compared the resulting assembly.
<beach>
I think some choices of special operators were made where they thought it would be hard to optimize otherwise. Of course, stuff like that changes over time.
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<gilberth>
Yes. And perhaps also a bit about tradition or existing systems. E.g. given BLOCK there's no reason that CATCH needs to be a special operator.
<beach>
Indeed.
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<jackdaniel>
block/return-from have more imformation lnown at compile time than catch/throw
<jackdaniel>
information* while the latter values may be computed at runtime
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<yacin>
if i've made an issue to add a package to quicklisp and it got skipped with the build attempt, does that mean i did something wrong? i've noticed it wasn't the only one that appeared to be skipped (getting the canbuild/cantbuild label) but i did everything the docs suggested to do
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<jackdaniel>
yacin: see what is the build problem, I think that there are some logs in ql for that
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<yacin>
ah, it doesn't have any build problems, at least that has been reported. but other issues added after mine _do_ have the can/cantbuild report
<yacin>
mine just doesn't have anything
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<phil_bb>
I can't seem to find any examples of macros that build defclass forms based on trees... is that a thing that already exists anywhere?
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