<whitequark_>
yep! i do have to mention that Libera guidelines require the topic to state that the channel is publicly logged
<whitequark_>
other than that, enjoy! I also have a Matrix<>IRC bridge that I (regretfully) run now that the Matrix people decided they're no longer interested in it; it's reliable and the Libera folks are aware of me running it and are onboard, but I don't offer it as a service unless I'm confident there will be prompt moderation of both sides of the bridge
<whitequark_>
it's a double-puppeting bridge so you can see Matrix nicks directly in IRC channel member list and vice versa
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<f_>
Why did you give me chanserv flags xD
<f_>
thanks I guess :P
<f_>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<f_>
oops
<f_>
(was looking at my recall command list and accidentally ran this)
* f_
trying out wayback
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<arraybolt3>
"Hey thanks for the admin powers!" *assumes god mode and proceeds to kick everyone else out*
<f_>
nah I don't do that kind of stuff.
<arraybolt3>
me neither, just was funny to see the scrollback :P
<f_>
Unless the channel is named ##chaos
<arraybolt3>
haha
<f_>
I wasn't aware of being op, just out of curiosity wanted to see /cs info and "oh hey look, that's me!"
<f_>
well, and /cs flags
<f_>
in any case
<f_>
I tried out wayback on my system, pretty awesome, the only issue I have is the dualmonitor stuff isn't working really well, but that is known.
<f_>
also I think fvwm3 might be buggy a bit? Or maybe didn't see it very well on the laptop screen (because my laptop is in clamshell mode)
<arraybolt3>
f_: you're the same f_ from #postmarketos on OFTC, right?
<f_>
arraybolt3: indeed
<f_>
pleased to meet you, again :)
<arraybolt3>
:)
<f_>
Hmm, I can't seem to be able to run i3 on it
<f_>
i3 does not like being ran inside Xwayland
<f_>
Oh, nevermind it's just complaining about the IPC socket or something.
<f_>
strange that wayback would segfault on i3 immediately exitting though
<f_>
[20790.173991] nouveau 0000:01:00.0: wayback[3622]: Unknown handle 0x00000011
<f_>
[20790.174006] nouveau 0000:01:00.0: wayback[3622]: validate_init
<f_>
[20790.174009] nouveau 0000:01:00.0: wayback[3622]: validate: -2
<f_>
Hm. Maybe I should have a closer look :p
<Ariadne>
idk, i am using amdgpu driver on loongarch to test
<Ariadne>
why loongarch? why not
<f_>
"why loongarch?" is not the right question to ask :)
<britney>
its promising
<britney>
a non-USA cpu
<f_>
nouveau on x86_64 here
<f_>
yes, loongarch is very promising.
<arraybolt3>
not even sure how I'd get a loongarch CPU here in the US
<arraybolt3>
s/CPU/machine/
<f_>
But I'd like to keep this laptop for a few more years :)
<Ariadne>
arraybolt3: honest ariadne's computing concern can help you
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<f_>
Sometimes, the correct question to ask is "why not", not "why"
<f_>
nvidia fermi gpu, by the way.
<f_>
That thing hasn't ceased to amaze me, and not in a good way
<arraybolt3>
Ariadne: you sell them, or you know companies that sell them?
<Ariadne>
both
<f_>
Where do you sell them?
<arraybolt3>
the only non-x86 machines I have here are an RPi 4 and a Chromebook.
<Ariadne>
(though that business is on hold at the moment)
<f_>
Okay
<arraybolt3>
not sure what I'll do with the Chromebook once it hits EOL, the RPi is slow because it's an RPi and RPis are slow
<Ariadne>
(i can't deal with the fact that importing $50k of CPUs and finished PCBs into the US might also cost me an additional $50k in tariffs, and that number be unpredictable)
<f_>
your chromebook could benefit from a touch of pmOS (which I think you already have) and a little bit of coreboot magic :)
<arraybolt3>
Unfortunately I don't run pmOS yet
<arraybolt3>
I'm interested in trying it on one of my x86 chromebooks
<arraybolt3>
but ERR:NOTIME
<f_>
huh, might've misremembered then
<f_>
anytime! :)
<Ariadne>
so when there is a stable US/China tariff regime, i'll work on it again
<Ariadne>
but yes, whenever that happens, you'll be able to buy loongarch-based machines that have coreboot firmware and are basically as open as hardware can possibly be
<f_>
sounds great
<axtlos>
hows loongarch support on linux distros?
<f_>
Pretty good I think
<f_>
Alpine has loongarch at least
<Ariadne>
alpine is basically the only distro worth bothering with
<Ariadne>
the rest were bootstrapped directly by loongson, which means the CCP may or may not control signing keys
<arraybolt3>
doesn't Debian have support for loongarch?
<axtlos>
debian is also maintained by loongson
<Ariadne>
yes, but see above note about signing keys
<arraybolt3>
I don't really get how they could be "in control of signing keys" given how Debian's contributing processes work, maybe I'm missing something about ports?
<f_>
What signing keys?
<Ariadne>
arraybolt3: they host the builders
<arraybolt3>
oh
<axtlos>
Ariadne: what about packages? does alpine generally built everything for loongarch?
<Ariadne>
yes
<Ariadne>
the entire package collection is available
<Ariadne>
i literally daily-drive a loongarch machine
<axtlos>
oh wow
<Ariadne>
mostly because it consumes ~30w of power
<Ariadne>
and most of that is GPU
<axtlos>
hmm makes me wonder how much a loongarch machine is
<axtlos>
im in europe so shouldn't be affected by tariffs
<arraybolt3>
curious, if you don't trust Loongarch to build the software, how come you trust them to produce the CPUs?
<Ariadne>
you can get reference boards on aliexpress for about 400eur
<axtlos>
I see, you mentioned using amdgpu, do amd gpus like just work on them?
<arraybolt3>
or are the CPU designs open and you're buying from a different manufactuer you do trust?
* arraybolt3
knows almost nothing about loongarch
<Ariadne>
arraybolt3: i buy loongson's chips, but the ISA is basically open like risc-v
<Ariadne>
they have extensive datasheets, that i scrutinized very heavily
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<arraybolt3>
hmm, kk
<Ariadne>
loongarch chips are like oldschool chips, there's no service processor/ME needed to boot them. they just start executing from a hardcoded address
<arraybolt3>
(I guess I just don't really see how the ISA being open helps much, the chip design is still closed it appears and there's nothing stopping them from embedding something like Intel ME in there that they don't mention)
<Ariadne>
nah, they would have to mention it in the datasheets
<arraybolt3>
apologies for the paranoid security opinions, I work on Whonix and Qubes OS as part of my job so I've kind of been programmed to think that way :P
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<whitequark[cis]>
hello from matrix (this is #wayback:catircservices.org)
<arraybolt3>
whitequark[cis]: heya from IRC
<whitequark[cis]>
purrfect
<arraybolt3>
anyway, I'll stop going off-topic now :)
<axtlos>
Ariadne: Searching up 'loongson' on aliexpress gave me some boards for like 12eur, would those be safe?
<Ariadne>
those are definitely fake
<axtlos>
aw that sucks, though make sense i guess
<axtlos>
guess i gotta start saving a bit :p
<Ariadne>
though there is loongson pi, which is based around loongarch microcontroller which runs about ~70eur? those run u-boot though and can only boot device-specific kernel images
<axtlos>
oh yeah i saw those too, but id prefer a more 'standard' pc like board
<Ariadne>
those are ~400eur as previously mentioned on aliexpress
<Ariadne>
however for 400eur they provide good value actually
<Ariadne>
no ME/PSP backdoor shit, clock-for-clock performance comparable with zen 1
<axtlos>
yeah its definetly very attractive
<Ariadne>
one interesting feature is the IOMMU will literally offline devices if they do weird shit
<axtlos>
alas, i am restricted by low college salaries
<axtlos>
Ariadne: oh really? how does that work
<Ariadne>
it just turns off the device on IOMMU exception
<Ariadne>
POWER9 also has this feature
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<whitequark[cis]1>
wow, they're that fast?? that's not something i expected
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<f_[m]`[m]>
ooh nice
<whitequark[cis]1>
on the irc side your nick looks like f_[m][m]`
<whitequark[cis]1>
s//`/, s//\`/
<Ariadne>
yeah it's totally usable for daily driver, the only thing that sucks is that firefox's JIT for loongarch is based on a mips one that is very wanting
<whitequark[cis]1>
(gah i can't add enough escapes to make that look normal)
<Ariadne>
so if you go to some website that wants to run 100s of MB of javascript, performance tanks, but that's due to the JIT
<whitequark[cis]1>
isn't loongarch pretty much mips, or am i missing something?
<Ariadne>
whitequark[cis]1: yes, but the JIT lacks support for things like vector extensions
<Ariadne>
which is the problem
<Ariadne>
the JIT generates bad code, basically
<whitequark[cis]1>
right, i see
<whitequark[cis]1>
> The Register reported that "the 3A5000 is said to be 50% faster and 30% more power efficient" than the preceding 3A4000.[35] Phoronix reported that the 3A5000 CPU was "roughly on a par with the likes of the Intel Core i3 8109U / Core 2 Quad Q9500 / Core i5 750 (roughly the state of the art in 2008), or Armv8-based Phytium FT-2000".[30]
<Ariadne>
loongarch itself is just MIPS64r6 with loongson's code translation assist instructions
<whitequark[cis]1>
especially given they started with MIPS
<Ariadne>
yeah they are sufficiently competitive. problem is scaling up the clock speeds and core counts
<Ariadne>
3a6000 taps out at 3ghz clock (and loongson recommends clocking at 2.5ghz)
<Ariadne>
3b6600/7000 series is clocked at 3.5ghz and has turbo up to 4.1/4.3ghz
<Ariadne>
but its still in engineering sample phase
<Ariadne>
the other downside is the DDR4 controller on 3a6000 is picky
<Ariadne>
and at least one batch of loongson reference boards has crosstalk issues between the two DDR4 channels, so you can only use one channel or the other on those boards if you want it to be stable
<britney>
i have the AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT [Discrete]
<Ariadne>
axtlos: and yes, amdgpu works just fine without any problems
<Ariadne>
when i tried nvidia though, i kept having problems with the IOMMU offlining the graphics card
<Ariadne>
so i guess nvidia cards do something that the IOMMU considers a security violation
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<Ariadne>
(i had this problem with the same card on my raptor blackbird system too)
<whitequark[cis]1>
i'd love to have a go at it with a PCIe analyzer
<whitequark[cis]1>
(i might first have to build a PCIe analyzer)
<Ariadne>
i should buy one of those glasgow thingies
<whitequark[cis]1>
oh, does your loongson board have exposed MIPS EJTAG? if they still use EJTAG you could probably debug it
<whitequark[cis]1>
i'm pretty sure my EJTAG probe is fairly buggy because i've only tested it on some ancient router, but maybe the fact that we have actually useful and fast MIPS CPUs is a reason to start caring about it again
<Ariadne>
i think there is JTAG pins
<Ariadne>
i have full boardviews for all of the loongson reference designs
<whitequark[cis]1>
glasgow has an applet that automatically guesses which pins in a JTAG connector have which function
<whitequark[cis]1>
that's probably one of my most used ones, because i haaate straining my eyes looking at the silk or the connector itself buried in some deep pocket of the device (if it's even labelled at all). just hook it up and let it do the rest
<whitequark[cis]1>
(something that i find funny is that there's a single-purpose device that does _just that_ and it's [$200](https://www.adafruit.com/product/1550))
<whitequark[cis]1>
it looks like alpine already has all of the native components the glasgow software stack needs, which is nice
<Ariadne>
right now the main blocker on my loongarch business is the import tariff variability issue
<Ariadne>
like, i can't run a business if some dipshit at 3AM announces on truth social that my import duties will be 300%
<Ariadne>
(can't wait for lunduke to report on my views about trump)
<whitequark[cis]1>
oh, you actually want to act as a loongarch system importer? that's so cool
<Ariadne>
whitequark[cis]1: looks fine, but alpine does not default to udev as device manager, so you may want to note that udev should be used as device manager
<whitequark[cis]1>
oh, is the busybox one the default?
<Ariadne>
you can choose between mdev (default), skarnet's mdevd + libudev-zero, or eudev (which will probably become systemd-udev soon)
<Ariadne>
`setup-devd` switches the manager to the desired one, e.g. `setup-devd udev` to use udev
<whitequark[cis]1>
thanks. from an alpine user perspective, if they just want to get udev permissions correct for their (non-container) install, is the solution there always "switch device manager" or something else?
<whitequark[cis]1>
s/udev/usb/
<whitequark[cis]1>
glasgow doesn't actually depend on udev, it just needs someone to chown the /dev/bus/usb/xxx/yyy node
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<Ariadne>
looks good to me :)
<whitequark[cis]1>
perfect, thanks ^^
<Ariadne>
whitequark[cis]: and no, you can configure mdev/mdevd to also set permissions in /etc/mdev.conf
<Ariadne>
most people just switch to udev if they are using a desktop though
<whitequark[cis]1>
oh right i completely forgot that mdev.conf exists. been a hot minute since i last used that
<f_>
23:31 <whitequark[cis]1> on the irc side your nick looks like f_[m][m]` // I know ^^
<whitequark[cis]1>
very chaotic :p
<f_>
Not like I use/like matrix much anyway :p
<whitequark[cis]1>
i basically use it as a bouncer. i used to run irssi in screen in mosh, but it got old after a few years and as i ended up separated by 400ms of latency from my server
<whitequark[cis]1>
also it's completely unusable on mobile phones
<whitequark[cis]1>
matrix plus matrix-appservice-irc is a terrible bouncer, especially if you are burdened with the administration of m-a-i on top of that, but it's... something, at least
<f_>
hi from gamja on my phone
<whitequark[cis]1>
some days i feel like i've conned myself into running some of the most painful to administer software i've ever used, but at least i know there are people from the community who find it useful
<whitequark[cis]1>
the glasgow channel has a truly horrifying irc<>matrix<>discord triple puppeting arrangement where a message can sometimes cross two bridges before getting to its destination
<whitequark[cis]1>
it is an abomination, and i expect it to fall apart any day yet somehow it continues to function
<f_>
Basically my setup is I have irssi+tmux connected to my soju irc bouncer
<whitequark[cis]1>
oh, i've never heard of gamja
<f_>
Then I also have a slightly modified version of the gamja webclient running, also connecting to soju
<f_>
So when I'm using my laptop I attach to the running irssi+tmux session I have, and when I'm not I just type the url to my gamja webclient instance, enter my username+pass and start chatting
<f_>
Very convenient IMO, though on the phone I don't have push notifications, that's ok for me but might not be for some others - for folks who want push notifs I recommend goguma on the phone
<whitequark[cis]1>
that seems basically tolerable actually
<whitequark[cis]1>
oh, that's quite nice, i didn't realize how far IRC has progressed
<f_>
soju basically has push notifs functionality for clients that support it e.g. goguma, as well as built-in file upload, which ,coupled with an irssi script, lets me paste stuff directly to my input box and it autopastebins it :)
<f_>
it also implements pretty mich anything ircv3-related
<f_>
much*
<whitequark[cis]1>
matrix has a file upload feature, but it's... there was a wave of matrix spam with uploads of supposed csam
<Ariadne>
i'm planning to move away from irccloud to soju+gamja+goguma
<whitequark[cis]1>
that was probably one of the most unpleasant ways to wake up
<f_>
Ariadne: O'rly? :D
<Ariadne>
because i have a home server that acts as a vpn hub anyway
<Ariadne>
i just haven't gotten around to it yet...
<f_>
whitequark: oh yes, reminda me that I have like 7 invites to some csam channel on my other matrix account... Not fun
<f_>
And I can't reject them
<Ariadne>
matrix is a non-starter for me. i have to use it for $dayjob, because Xen people use it. i hate it.
<whitequark[cis]1>
it got bridged everywhere and my matrix bridge was k-lined by the libera folks as a precaution (can't blame them for it)
<whitequark[cis]1>
i am beyond grateful to the universe that this doesn't happen more often or it will shorten my lifetime by a few decades
<whitequark[cis]1>
though after delisting the matrix channels i run from the public room directory this sort of thing stopped happening
<whitequark[cis]1>
matrix is like fractally awful. i use it almost exclusively and i hate it beyond description
<f_>
Matrix doesn't love me back
<Ariadne>
i feel bad for robin, he has to basically sit there and defend this pile of shit but has no resources to fix it
<f_>
Whenever I can I stick to IRC + XMPP
<whitequark[cis]1>
if i ever leave element open for a day or two i have to restart it because each keystroke takes a whole second to do anything
<f_>
Oh, I'm used to Element triggering my kernel's OOM killer
<Ariadne>
element basically pegs the CPU on my loongson machine
<whitequark[cis]1>
and i can't really use (most) other clients because they don't implement e2ee, which is like the one redeeming feature of matrix
<Ariadne>
because of bad JIT
<whitequark[cis]1>
i am not an electron hater generally but holy shit is element poorly written
<whitequark[cis]1>
i think the bar for building an application using web technologies should be higher than the native ones, like you only get to use element once you have mastered win32 and qt
<Ariadne>
i actually have multiple loongson machines, including a mini-server design i collaborated with the bananapi guys on
<f_>
I'm not a webclient person, but out of all webclients I tried Element is the worst
<Ariadne>
most of my home IT stack uses less than 200 watts total
<whitequark[cis]1>
mobile element, which is a different codebase, is inexplicably even worse because it just has no search
<Ariadne>
yeah i use matrix on my phone
<Ariadne>
i gave up on element desktop
<whitequark[cis]1>
notifications basically don't work reliably
<f_>
I don't mind if it has less features than the desktop version
<f_>
Because I'm very unproductive on a phone to begin with
<Ariadne>
the only thing i miss from discord is file upload support
<Ariadne>
during lockdown, i started working on an ircv3 extension that allowed irc networks to advertise a file upload service
<Ariadne>
maybe i should just finish that work :P
<whitequark[cis]1>
also, and this is probably the thing i dislike the most, matrix has this cool feature where sometimes it will gaslight you by design (because every room is a table in a distributed database and sometimes the two replicas don't agree)
<f_>
Ariadne: Have a look at soju.im/filehost
<whitequark[cis]1>
i've had relationships nearly fall apart because of matrix more than once
<f_>
It's a soju vendored ircv3 spec that implements fileupload
<Ariadne>
f_: yeah, i basically came up with the same, except OAuth authentication was mandatory
<Ariadne>
though in this specific project, i ripped out services and implemented IRCX instead
<f_>
mmhmmm
<Ariadne>
(i hadn't ever made an IRCX server, so figured i'd give it a go)
<f_>
Also, you think gamja is esthetically pleasing? ;p
<Ariadne>
(in IRCX, channel registrations and so on are shared state, managed as a TS6 protocol extension)
<Ariadne>
f_: not particularly, but
<whitequark[cis]1>
f_: i like gamja, it looks quite similar to the irc logger i wrote like 15 years ago
<Ariadne>
CSS is easy to theme
<f_>
Mine looks pretty nice, yep the css is very easy to change
<f_>
whitequark: haha :D
<f_>
Definitely
<whitequark[cis]1>
i know some people who use my irc logger as basically a read only irc client, which wasn't something i anticipated
<whitequark[cis]1>
(it has real-time message append, so you can do that)
<whitequark[cis]1>
it will be quite funny if we all (as a society) end up going back to ircv3. i can't wait
<f_>
All you need is <_whitelogger> [relay] <someone> hi
<navi>
cked
<whitequark[cis]1>
see, the reason i run the (absolutely abysmal) matrix-appservice-irc is so that tab-completion works across bridges
<navi>
aaa (sorry)
<whitequark[cis]1>
is it worth the effort? frankly probably no but i'm a perfectionist and i really dislike impediments to effective communication
<f_>
whitequark I've a simpler solution to enable that on matterbridge but it is ugly
<f_>
Very ugly
<whitequark[cis]1>
does it post messages via a relay but maintain connections per nick, or something
<f_>
No, it does puppeting to irc
<f_>
My ugly hack+matterbridge that is
<whitequark[cis]1>
what's the ugly part?
<f_>
Well it's an api plugin that matterbridge talks to
<f_>
it doesn't do any kind of nicklist syncing
<f_>
Also matterbridge doesn't do puppeting on Matrix
<whitequark[cis]1>
on my m-a-i instance i only do nicklist syncing in one direction (irc->matrix). i don't maintain an irc connection per matrix room because (a) it would be thousands of connections and (b) the original reason libera.chat folks wanted that is private irc rooms, i only ever bridge public ones as a matter of policy
<whitequark[cis]1>
s/matrix/mxid/, s/room//
<f_>
pmOS also runs a modified matrix-appservice-irc on oftc
<f_>
with some neat fixes
<Ariadne>
tbh irc networks should just run an irc bridge that bridges at the server-to-server protocol level
<whitequark[cis]1>
f_: i'm very interested in the neat fixes
<f_>
As it turns out if you hook PyLink to matrix2051 it works
<f_>
whitequark: but anyway that instance is setup to sync nicklist too on both sides
<f_>
With oftc's blessing OFC
<whitequark[cis]1>
Ariadne: i think the problem with that is that matrix is a sysadmin and moderation (especially moderation) nightmare and the people running IRC networks don't particularly want to enable more of it after the matrix.org people spent years promising and failing to fix the software involved
<f_>
It also has portalling enabled, but only for allowlisted people
<f_>
lol I once was involved in the fixing of some vuln(s) on m-a-i
<f_>
it really feels like they're understaffed
<whitequark[cis]1>
m-a-i is nearly unmaintained at this point
<whitequark[cis]1>
there's just Half-Shot doing fixes across like a dozen packages
<f_>
anyway I historically used an xmpp irc bridge for ircing from a phone
<f_>
It was nice because I've been selfhosting xmpp for years at this point
<whitequark[cis]1>
ejabberd?
<f_>
But then I migrated servers, and didn't bother to setup the irc bridges
<f_>
prosody + someone's instance of biboumi(xmpp irc bridge)
<f_>
It worked great except on oftc, sometimes it doesn't want to connect there and I've no clue why
<f_>
But when it did connect it idled as f_[x]
<f_>
(Because f_ is the irc bouncer)
<f_>
anyways...
<whitequark[cis]1>
speaking of weird mips, someone once got a weird russian homegrown mips SBC as a gift
<whitequark[cis]1>
* once got me a weird
<Ariadne>
i do want to get an elbrus machine at some point
<whitequark[cis]1>
Baikal-T1
<whitequark[cis]1>
it's genuinely terrible. among other things, she seems to have gotten a hold of a batch of engineering sample SBCs, because she had to reverse-engineer the board and figure out why it didn't work (it's because due to some silicon issue the CPU forgot how to jump)
<whitequark[cis]1>
but even with a fully functioning CPU it's just incredibly slow
<f_>
cpu forgot how to jump 🤣
<whitequark[cis]1>
she traced the commands to the SPI ROM and decoded them as MIPS assembly and sometimes it would decode a jump that'd have to be taken and would just... not take it
<whitequark[cis]1>
which eventually made it get stuck somewhere in early ROM boot code
<f_>
Fun
<Ariadne>
the nice thing about these loongarch machines is that they take like 20 seconds to reboot. none of my x86 machines are that fast
<f_>
Mine takes about 20secs to boot last time I checked I think
<f_>
I'll need to check again
<Ariadne>
i'm talking end to end
<whitequark[cis]1>
i try to avoid rebooting as much as possible >.>
<Ariadne>
reset signal asserted to "back at alpine login prompt"
<f_>
Yes
<Ariadne>
maybe gigabyte just makes shitty firmware
<f_>
HP also makes awful fw but at least it has a "fastboot" option
<f_>
And that laptop will be corebooted anyway, just a matter of time
<whitequark[cis]1>
i miss the time when i had enough energy to care about boot times or coreboot >.>
<f_>
I remember when my hpbios just crashed upon seeing some cheap usb stick with Lubuntu on it
<f_>
Fun times
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<f_>
byebye irccloud f_ I guess
<whitequark[cis]1>
have you seen that pcie card (what was it, scsi?) that had firefox and linux in option rom
<f_>
I did not
<f_>
But I did see some hp server with firefox and linux in bios
<f_>
Not this computer
<f_>
I'm impressed about the bios of my laptop a bit though
<f_>
The computer itself is from 2011, but the last bios upgrade it had... Was on 2016
<f_>
Time for Zzz. See you all
<Ariadne>
i just cancelled my irccloud subscription :p