f_ changed the topic of #wayback to: Wayback - a wayland-based X11 environment | https://wayback.freedesktop.org/ | preview release 0.1 is out! https://wayback.freedesktop.org/news/2025/07/23/wayback-0.1-released/ | src: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback | logs: https://libera.catirclogs.org/wayback | matrix bridge: #wayback:catircservices.org
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<f_> I would like to avoid having to depend on logind
<f_> But I guess it's fine to have some support for it, Xorg also has some integration if it's installed
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<Ariadne> to be absolutely clear: i consider hard depending on logind to be unacceptable
<Ariadne> some optional support is fine, but an SUID helper that does the vt switch would be the way to go here for cases where libseat cannot do it
<f_> Yeah Xorg doesn't hard-depend on logind so there's no reason wayback should
<f_> Even if it's elogind
<axtlos> I agree
<axtlos> but all that is hypothetical until we figure out how to switch the vt wlroots renders on
<axtlos> I'll have to look into that more tomorrow
<f_> 23:38 <dramforever[m]1> mccd: no hurry but did you try xwayland-satellite? i'm curious to see if it works for you. it should be non-blurry... i think < I suspect they have a HiDPI display and have 2x+/fractional scaling in their compositor
<f_> Wayback does not handle dpi at all
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<f_> "Irrespective of everything else about this, their web page starts with a box that is styled to resemble WindowMaker, and so it is automatically an excellent project."
<f_> :> glad they love it
<axtlos> huh what's lobste.rs
<axtlos> looks like a reddit frontend
<axtlos> though either way I'm happy that people like it
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<axtlos> honestly I was worried that wayback was gonna get some "redhat is getting rid of our xorg now!!!!!!" reaction
<dok> i am personally intrested in wayback so i run classic Xorg desktkops on SoCs which i think have a better wayland support than plain Xorg
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<mojo_> same, we develop a apps on SoCs, X is deprecated and it is only a weston with downstream patches, its hard to explain to my colleagues, that thei are wrong if they want to position their application
<f_> axtlos: lobsters is a link aggregrator
<f_> Similar to HackerNewa
<f_> *HackerNews
<f_> Not a reddit frontend
<f_> (And I still hate mobile keyboards)
<navi> note, iirc, that Xorg *also* fails the vt switch if it doesn't have perms and logind support is disabled
<navi> so there's no need for the suid helper, at least not to match behaviour with Xorg
<hiya> Is Ariadne Conill the founder of wayback?
<hiya> Is she an alpine linux developer?
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<f_> hiya: yes and yes
<f_> navi: oh haha
<hiya> Thank you
<dramforever[m]1> <f_> Wayback does not handle dpi at all
<dramforever[m]1> i genuinely don't know what dark magic hidpi xwayland is but it (mostly) works for me...
<dramforever[m]1> what kde calls "Apply scaling themselves"
<f_> hiya yw
<hiya> f_: needed this info for bulletin :)
<hiya> First for our site
<hiya> issue 0
<f_> dramforever[m]1......idk it doesn't do anything related to DPI at all for the moment
<f_> hiya: nice
<bigmac> hiya: sweet, share the link after it's done
<axtlos> dramforever[m]1: it means that the apps do the scaling, not the compositor
<axtlos> xwayland has nothing to do with it
<bigmac> By the way, I see that there's an issue board. However, do we track anywhere on which issues is being worked on and which are free to be picked
<axtlos> no we don't, though rn the general rule is that if there is no open pr and it wasn't mentioned here no one's working on it
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<Consolatis[m]1> > xwayland has nothing to do with it
<Consolatis[m]1> well, afair it scales the internal x11 display to surface size * fractional scale factor and then uses the viewporter protocol to tell the compositor that its buffer is already scaled to the correct dimensions. resulting in the compositor not doing any scaling on top.
<Consolatis[m]1> no clue if (and how) xwayland exposes some "please use this DPI scale" kind of setting to its X11 clients though, otherwise they would just end up being very small
<ConanKudo[m]1> they do wind up being very small generally I think
<ConanKudo[m]1> that's why KDE has that warning in system settings
<bigmac> f_: Have you played with #49 more afterwards? You reproduced it by launching wayback-session on a new tty -> launching cage w/ foot inside of a xwm and then when something new is launched from the xwm (not within cage) it opens up in cage?
<Wayback> #49 cage behavior oddity on wayback r126 commit 74665a0 - icewm - cage (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/issues/49) [opened]
<hiya> bigmac: Sure :)
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<dramforever[m]1> <bigmac> f_: Have you played with #49 more afterwards? You reproduced it by launching wayback-session on a new tty -> launching cage w/ foot inside of a xwm and then when something new is launched from the xwm (not within cage) it opens up in cage?
<dramforever[m]1> omg i think i get why
<Wayback> #49 cage behavior oddity on wayback r126 commit 74665a0 - icewm - cage (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/issues/49) [opened]
<dramforever[m]1> wayland clients are hard-coded to try wayland-0 if WAYLAND_DISPLAY is not set
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<Consolatis[m]1> bad ones, yes
<dramforever[m]1> if by bad ones you mean anything that calls wl_display_connect(NULL);
<ConanKudo[m]1> yeah it's not "bad ones"
<ConanKudo[m]1> it's the expected failover check
<ConanKudo[m]1> things that don't do that are doing it wrong
<dramforever[m]1> this is documented, intended behavior of wl_display_connect()
<ConanKudo[m]1> yup
<ConanKudo[m]1> if there's a Wayland client that doesn't do that, it's broken
<Consolatis[m]1> applications are supposed to use wl_display_connect(NULL) unconditionally, even if XDG_SESSION_TYPE is not set to wayland and no WAYLAND_DISPLAY is set?
<dramforever[m]1> i think yes
<Consolatis[m]1> hm.. well, then let me retract that "bad" statement
<dramforever[m]1> in the future where we also ship 12to11 or something for x11 sessions
<dramforever[m]1> 12to11 should run on wayland-0
<Consolatis[m]1> feels very wrong to me though. I think some compositors actually started to not use wayland-0 to work around such apps but I don't quite remember the details
<dramforever[m]1> yes, i think cage should not run on wayland-0 unless it's the top compositor
<dramforever[m]1> uh i mean it should not use wayland-0 on the x11 or wayland backend
<ConanKudo[m]1> yeah there's a few cases where you don't want this, particularly if you are nesting compositors
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<f_> bigmac: I think we should close that issue given it's not wayback-specific
<f_> issue #49 that is
<Wayback> #49 cage behavior oddity on wayback r126 commit 74665a0 - icewm - cage (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/issues/49) [opened]
<f_> It also happens on stock X(ephyr)
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<dramforever[m]1> i think it should also happen with straight up cage on xorg
<f_> yep that's my point
<dramforever[m]1> so in that sense we're doing it perfectly
<f_> hey, bug-for-bug compat :P
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<axtlos> btw did we make a 0.1.1 release yet?
<dramforever[m]1> no
<axtlos> ah damn
<axtlos> either way wayback 0.1 is in the gentoo guru now
<dramforever[m]1> you can bring in my patch if you feel like it
<dramforever[m]1> that would be !77
<Wayback> !77 wayback-session: Use &argv[1] not &argv[optind] (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/merge_requests/77) [merged]
<axtlos> yeah ill do it if we dont have 0.1.1 by monday
<ConanKudo[m]1> I was waiting for the version MR to merge
<ConanKudo[m]1> once the feedback is addressed, I will land it and make 0.1.1
<Wayback> @a​xtlos opened merge request: !80 Add gentoo guru package (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/merge_requests/80)
<Wayback> @Conan_Kudo merged merge request: !80 Add gentoo guru package (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/merge_requests/80)
<dramforever[m]1> oh it's gonna conflict again with my thing again isn't it...
<dramforever[m]1> let me just get that through, the pre-release is in nixos-unstable so the link is not dead, that's good enough right
<dramforever[m]1> can i just unalign the links in the markdown?
<dramforever[m]1> well, the sorting is gone as well...
<axtlos> doesn't #29 work already
<Wayback> #29 [Feature Request] virtual monitors (reimplementation of the command `xrandr --setmonitor`) (https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayback/wayback/-/issues/29) [opened]
<axtlos> i think Consolatis[m]1 mentioned it before
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<dramforever[m]1> yes, this should just work on a single monitor