<ConanKudo[m]1>
absolute pointer positioning is not currently possible with public wayland protocols
<whitequark[cis]>
that was my conclusion as well. this is ... bonkers
<whitequark[cis]>
i've seen people trying to get mouse position with pipewire of all things, and xdg-desktop-portals rejecting a dbus request because dbus might be too slow?? (it's not)
<whitequark[cis]>
i like wayland for all its flaws and want it to succeed, and rejecting widely implemented and requested features by fiat isn't the way to do it
<jvvv>
that seems to mirror my sentiments after spending the last few hours researching dpms, looking at how to implement it for compositor, then searching how to make that available to xwayland... implementing for the compositor does not look to bad, but how to export that to xwayland i don't know
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<axtlos>
jvvv: the easiest way would be to implement a wlr-output-managemnt client in Xwayland, so that it can forward any output requests to wayland
<axtlos>
but i doubt that xwayland upstream would accept a patch implementing that, since its not an 'official' protocol and also not even stable
<jvvv>
those are all solid points... and i think you are likely right that such wouldn't be accepted
<jvvv>
i'm still playing around with it for the wayland side... eventually, as i learn more abould wayland, i want to port bspwm to wayland and i will want it then anyways
<jvvv>
s/abould/about/
<jvvv>
currently, i'm looking at westen code to see how they do it through libdrm
<whitequark[cis]>
would it not be fine to have a transient xwayland fork tailored for wayback?
<jvvv>
wlroots/backend/drm/legacy.c: has code to turn output on/off, but nothing for standby or suspend
<vyivel>
how is it different from turning the output off?
<whitequark[cis]>
i think that matters for like, CRT monitors?
<whitequark[cis]>
i'm not aware what a modern LCD monitor (... an LCD monitor) would do different
<jvvv>
hmmm, good points... probably why just on/off is handled
<whitequark[cis]>
there are two main options: "blank the screen" (send all-black) and "stop sending pixel data". i think for CRT monitors there may have been an intermediate option but it was so long ago i don't actually know how that worked, and it doesn't seem relevant today either way
<whitequark[cis]>
(the purpose of having more options would be to make wakeup faster by keeping some of the components warm)
<whitequark[cis]>
* (the purpose of having more options would be to make wakeup faster by keeping some of the components, but not all, active)
<f_>
08:33 <whitequark[cis]> would it not be fine to have a transient xwayland fork tailored for wayback?
<f_>
that would mean a bit more maintenance burden wouldn't it
<f_>
ideally everything would be upstreamed but yeah perhaps a softfork will be necessary
<f_>
also it would seem that we all forgot solaris
<f_>
solaris doesn't support wayland
<f_>
and still uses xorg userspace drivers
<axtlos>
f_: RE: xwayland fork; Yeah it may be needed briefly, but ideally we should try to not rely on that, it would create a higher burden for us and for packagers
<Achill[m]>
(you could use a subproject with patches for that)
<axtlos>
yes for development purposes, but packagers dont like that
<Achill[m]>
packagers like that more than a new fork as package
<axtlos>
true
<f_>
axtlos: yep exactly
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<ConanKudo[m]1>
f_: I did not forget solaris
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<f_>
ConanKudo[m]1: I did :)
<ConanKudo[m]1>
but the solution for solaris is not easy: freebsd's linuxkpi interface and drm-kmod projects need to be ported to the solaris/illumos kernel
<leah>
this article only links to that funny issue page on xlibre, but does not link to your own project at all
<leah>
furthermore, if you are going to link to the xlibre page as you do, i recommend adding rel="nofollow" inside the archor tag, otherwise you give more google rankings to nazis
<leah>
the irony is that your article currently boosts xlibre google rank rather than your own. which i believe is the opposite of what you want, right?
<leah>
i'm careful when writing about my own enemies too; when linking to them, if i have to, i use rel="nofollow", or i paste the URL not inside an archor tag
<leah>
i also steal their thunder. on the libreboot and canoeboot websites, several pages including the home pages make reference to "GNU boot loader GRUB", instead of saying "GNU GRUB". i like to rub salt in the wound when i really hate someone.
<axtlos>
How does being more verbose rub salt into the wound?
<Ariadne>
i dunno
<Ariadne>
anyway i’m not convinced forking xwayland is required
<axtlos>
yeah hopefully it isnt
<ConanKudo[m]1>
it won't be
<leah>
axtlos: because their hostile fork is called "GNU Boot"
<leah>
i made a hostile anti-fork called canoeboot, and the home page says "GNU boot loader, GRUB"
<axtlos>
oh gnu has a libreboot fork?
<leah>
this, among other things, makes canoeboot appear on the first page of google when you search for *their* project, namely gnu boot
<leah>
on duckduckgo it's even worse. canoeboot is the 3rd result when you type gnuboot
<leah>
ariadne knows all about that
<leah>
she witnessed my madness, when i went to war with the fsf - and won
<Ariadne>
ok
<axtlos>
idk i dont like dealing with all that media presence stuff
<axtlos>
though i do agree, it may be useful to have a link to wayback in the post
<leah>
it is critical. you need to spam wayback whenever socially permissable.
<leah>
linking to xlibre's repository only boosts xlibre - unless you add nofollow to the link
<leah>
then googlebot won't follow it
<Ariadne>
SEO is largely boring
<Ariadne>
and increasingly irrelevant
<leah>
i'm not at war with gnu anymore. but i set myself a challenge, that searching gnuboot will one day show canoeboot.org in the #1 spot
<leah>
i'm still working on implementing that milestone
<leah>
perhaps getting wayback associated with x itself would be prudent?
<leah>
x.org i mean. and fdo.
<leah>
it seems to me that they would prefer it too, and then they can finally archive their xorg implementation
<Ariadne>
already in progress…
<leah>
very good
<leah>
yeah, once wayback is stable, i guess you can retcon the entire xorg project
<leah>
all the distros will be using wayback instead. and users would be none the wiser. it would Just Work
<leah>
i'm sure a few people would still be mildly bemused, but hey
<f_>
In case you didn't read the scrollback wayback is migrating to freedesktop infra for the repo and website
<ellyqw>
neat
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<nariyel>
Hello, is xsuspender going to work with wayback?
<axtlos>
nariyel: the general goal is that every app works
<axtlos>
it may already work, i dont see it do anything 'special' that would stop it from working
<nariyel>
axtlos: that would be execellent
<nariyel>
things like xwininfo and xprop are also very useful to me
<axtlos>
those work
<nariyel>
if xsuspender works I am in love ^^
<nariyel>
axtlos: happy to hear, thank you 😀
<leah>
there is another project that will very much appreciate your project, and that's openbsd
<leah>
their whole mantra is to reduce code footprints as much as possible; there is already experimental work on wayland integration in their projectn
<leah>
they can kill two birds with one stone
<leah>
like
<leah>
they can continue shipping xenodm and fvwm and everything else as they currently do
<leah>
but then they could also package sway
<axtlos>
nariyel: It seems to launch fine, doesn't have any errors but i'm not sure how to tell if a window was suspended or not
<axtlos>
leah: openbsd already has sway?
<leah>
does it work though?
<axtlos>
yeah
<leah>
wayland works in openbsd already? i thought it still wasn't properly merged yet
<whitequark[cis]>
it feels pretty nice to have built something so "right" for a given space that people basically just clone it as-is
<f_>
yep :D
<whitequark[cis]>
i did it in about 3 days in 2011 or something sitting in a coffee shop in [large city] while skipping class because i was heartbroken that a girl i liked has ghosted me
<whitequark[cis]>
so it feels surreal to see that 15 years later this is basically the gold standard for irc logging
<f_>
:D
<f_>
I actually tried getting your logger running on my infra but I think struggled to get it running or something or I think some dep I didn't want to install
<f_>
Can't exactly remember.
<whitequark[cis]>
theres a nix derivation now
<f_>
ircjournal was also a pain to get running, but it works now
<f_>
I don't do nix
<whitequark[cis]>
*shocked face*
<f_>
I do alpine containers :P
<whitequark[cis]>
ah yeah
<f_>
inside lxc+incus
<f_>
on an alpine host
<whitequark[cis]>
i think it used to rely on some outdated version of ruby/ruby packages
<f_>
I think it was redis that I was worried about
<f_>
some very old version of redis
<whitequark[cis]>
oh
<whitequark[cis]>
it works with any version of redis
<f_>
even redict? :D
<whitequark[cis]>
i think so?
<Achill[m]>
redict is 100% redis compatible
<whitequark[cis]>
it literally just uses the pubsub mechanism
<Achill[m]>
or valkey or whatever
<f_>
Okay good
<whitequark[cis]>
you could make it work over unix sockets with like. 30 minutes of effort
<whitequark[cis]>
like over bare unix sockets :p
<whitequark[cis]>
all it does is broadcasts "here's a new id i put into the database" whenever it does do that
<whitequark[cis]>
at the time, i was unaware you can just use postgres for that
<whitequark[cis]>
actually at the time i was using mysql
<f_>
I have a postgres handy
<f_>
like, it's running in its own container and I have other stuff from other containers talk to it
<whitequark[cis]>
i was on twitter since high school
<whitequark[cis]>
to me it was simply a staple of communication, something akin to air
<whitequark[cis]>
very much like irc, actually
<f_>
and, eh, see what happens to some centralised social media owned by some company who want to profit?
<whitequark[cis]>
i don't think anyone is exempt from being subject to power. i mean, we're all here on libera after freenode did what?
<whitequark[cis]>
and don't get me started on fedi server admin drama
<Ariadne>
i try to stay out of such things unless they are egregious
<Ariadne>
the fediblock hashtag is half useful stuff, and half teenage drama
<Ariadne>
exhausting, really
<whitequark[cis]>
moreover, i don't think the elon case is even about profit. twitter used to be more or less profitable and now it's extremely not. i think (this isn't my original observation, mcc did it first) things like elon's purchase of twitter, and more generally vc-subsidized companies like uber or airbnb, should more appropriately be seen as attempts at *terraforming*
<whitequark[cis]>
the goal is not to profit, but to change the landscape in which we all exist. yes, some of them later turn to squeeze the margins. but that's secondary
<Ariadne>
i think elon is just an addicted social media user with narcissistic tendency. so he wants to own twitter for that reason.
<whitequark[cis]>
i think it's useful to see that as secondary because in many cases, these companies don't even have any meaningful plan to achieve profitability (see also the AI wave). but they sure as hell tend to have the power to do the terraforming
<whitequark[cis]>
Ariadne: yeah, that's not mutually exclusive. i'm largely uninterested in psychoanalyzing elon personally, i'm thinking of what the power he has allows him to do, institutionally
<Ariadne>
i can't help it, before i stumbled into a tech career i was a social worker
<whitequark[cis]>
ah, makes sense
<whitequark[cis]>
i've noticed myself falling into the trap of going from "spending too much time understanding someone's behavior" to "making excuses for it", so these days i distance myself and look at things in terms of flow of power first
<whitequark[cis]>
re: egregious fedi drama, yes, it's taken me several years to find a fedi instance which i would even consider migrating to from mastosoc. for all its many faults, mastosoc isn't likely to evaporate with a 3 day notice, and the "too big to fail" effect means that only a minority defederates for some silly reasons (though what i get in exchange is that some people will never be able to contact me in first place. and i'm fine with that
<whitequark[cis]>
tradeoff)
<f_>
well. they can always use irc
<whitequark[cis]>
or email, but it's not the same
<whitequark[cis]>
tbf i think the only thing i care about federating is federated identity
<whitequark[cis]>
if matrix had federated identity it wouldn't need federated rooms. instead it's doing things completely backwards. matrix.org's failure should not result in the loss of every single conversation history i've ever had
<whitequark[cis]>
(and every single existing room too. yes i know i can add a new account in bulk to these rooms, that's such a PITA i'm not sure i'd do it)
<f_>
xmpp has federated identity (if we're talking about the same thing)
<whitequark[cis]>
hm, does it? my understanding was that (a) if i want to have "whitequark@whitequark.org" i have to run a full ejabberd instance there and (b) if i have "whitequark@jabber.org" and "jabber.org" fails i no longer have that JID
<whitequark[cis]>
compare this to bluesky, where i have "whitequark.org" in a way that's independent from bluesky
<whitequark[cis]>
(yes, i know bluesky has a lot of problems, that's not the point here)
<f_>
Ah that's what you mean
<whitequark[cis]>
what i would like to have is to have "whitequark.org" be my fedi identity, in which case the posts could be on mastodon.social or on treehouse.social without the people who want to read them having to care all that much
<whitequark[cis]>
this would largely solve the problem where someone gets upset at your instance and now you have to scramble to run elsewhere
<whitequark[cis]>
the reason this is especially important to me is because i have severe dissociative amnesia and my posts \*are\* my memory. there is often not another place where it's accessible
<whitequark[cis]>
(this is also why i care about full text search)
<f_|cat>
archive them?
<whitequark[cis]>
and if i had that in matrix, each room could be simply stored on the server where it's created. this would negate the need for matrix to be a distributed eventually-consistent database, which is the source of like 80% of things that makes matrix bad
<whitequark[cis]>
f_|cat: i do, but most archiving software is one-sided: it loses conversations
<f_|cat>
Like. Even with federated identity, you need internet to access all that
<whitequark[cis]>
yes, there are two separate problems here
<f_|cat>
and if you forgot stuff and have no internet you're screwed
<whitequark[cis]>
one which impacts basically everyone, and one which impacts me personally
<f_|cat>
but federated identity sure sounds interesting
<whitequark[cis]>
i understand that it's a well known problem in the circles of people who work on current-gen and next-gen social media,
<whitequark[cis]>
it's just that nobody has really solved it in a satisfactory way yet
<whitequark[cis]>
re: having no internet: this doesn't really happen to me in practice. the closest i came to losing internet for any appreciable time was when a war happened, but even that didn't do much
<whitequark[cis]>
i expect that i'm far more likely to lose access to something due to fedi drama rather than due to no internet
<whitequark[cis]>
(besides, you'd expect a cyborg to not function well without a network it uses, wouldn't you? and i sure fit the definition of 'cybernetic organism')
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<f_>
that being said I think your memory is not that bad either ^^
<f_>
I mean sometimes I don't remember what I ate for breakfast
<f_>
:P
<whitequark[cis]>
i've had someone tell me, after i accurately recalled their personal details from many years ago after only a few interactions, that they would've been terrified of me had they not been confident that i was well-intentioned towards them
<whitequark[cis]>
the joys of dissociative amnesia is combining _that_ with e.g. being unable to recall almost anything before 2021 unless specifically prompted
<whitequark[cis]>
the cherry on top is that i know that some of my memories are/were rather mutable and basically can't be trusted as they had been morphed towards someone else's will, but i cannot apriori know which ones these are. i can only mark them after the fact if i discover that
<f_>
oof.
<whitequark[cis]>
i don't particularly love having the type of ptsd that lets other people retcon my universe, including both purely factual things and also biographical ones
<whitequark[cis]>
one time i had a very bright and clear memory of a certain table on wikipedia listing certain factual information. it was involved in a tense situation, and was a key part of me making certain important decisions. a year later i went through pubmed to confirm said factual information and i found only one pdf which provided no evidence towards that. then i went to wikipedia to not find the table there. then i went through the entire
<whitequark[cis]>
history of that article diff by diff to confirm that it was never there