<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: OpenBSD's init system in particular is awesome. Only a very few lines of KSH code is enough to make it just work.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: Much of the laws in Japan aren't actually enforced anyway. Just look at the nuisance streamers for example, there's more of them coming to Japan and Korea now, they get confronted by police every day, only to politely ask them to not do it again.
<remiliascarlet>
Meanwhile, Singapore and The Phillipines caughed 1 nuisance streamer, published them very heavily, and nobody dares to copy them there.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Must be Australia because they dress like bums and they are all unhealthy looking.
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<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet and my centre-punch have one thing in common. They are both made in Japan.
<SiFuh_>
Hahaha
<SiFuh_>
UK spends 4 Billion to make a train trip across the English Channel shorter. They succeeded by making it 30 minutes shorter.
<SiFuh_>
What a waste of money.
<SiFuh_>
It was said that it would be better to spend 4 billion instead hiring models to serve the customers so they wouldn't care how long it takes.
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<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: Oh, I meant "punished".
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: I knew it
<remiliascarlet>
zorz: Change of mind, FreeBSD still sucks.
<remiliascarlet>
It's as if there's no quality control in the ports whatsoever. If you run KDE Plasma, right clicking the panel crashes Plasma, and pressing CTRL + C in Konsole crashes the entire PC.
<remiliascarlet>
So things you'd expect to be tested fail spectacularly.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Figured that out in 2004 :-)
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_ wants us to believe in his awesome prognostication powers, if in 2004 he could tell that FreeBSD would still suck in 2025.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: FreeBSD is basically, get it to work, and boast about it. But if you do something and it fails stop doing it. Just stop doing it! Reminds me of that doctor's joke. "Doctor, when I do this it hurts" The doctor replies "Well don't do it"
<remiliascarlet>
Friend: "I want a PC that is easy to use, is not Windows, Mac, or Linux, and has lots of software available." So the first thing that came to my mind is FreeBSD.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: That isn't what I said. But you said it. It still sucks in 2025. Hahahaha
<remiliascarlet>
OpenBSD has KDE Plasma as well, and it's more polished, but then you have to teach that person how to update from snapshots, because otherwise they'll be stuck on the exact same version for 6 months each time.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: Somebody goes to the doctor, and says "doctor, I have such a weird problem, I have to fart a lot!", so the doctor picks up a long stick, and the patient asks in a terrified voice "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO!?", and the doctor replies "I'll open a window".
<farkuhar>
remiliascarlet: What's wrong with sticking with the same version for 6 months between updates? Not everything needs to be on the bleeding edge all the time.
<remiliascarlet>
farkuhar: Not necessarily bleeding edge, cutting edge is sufficient.
<remiliascarlet>
But what's wrong, depends on whether the software frozen for release is good or not. So if it gets frozen on a buggy DE, you're stuck with a buggy DE for 6 months. If you get a stable DE, you'll enjoy a stable DE for 6 months.
<SiFuh_>
Hehehe 'enjoy' who 'enjoys' a DE?
<remiliascarlet>
And a rolling release kind of fixes that, so if you end up on a buggy release, you know a bug fix will be ready in a few days.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: Normies.
<SiFuh_>
And beerman
<remiliascarlet>
I had to install a laptop for a normie friend, so a WM is going to be too hard for them.
<SiFuh_>
_had_ is not a word I'd use there
<remiliascarlet>
The installation is already done, now I have to decide between replacing the DE or OS before the promised date of delivery.
<SiFuh_>
"No, we have to take in nourishment, expel waste and breathe in enough oxygen to keep our cells from dying. Everything else is purely optional." -- Sheldon Cooper
<remiliascarlet>
Autism.
<farkuhar>
Hmm, I might have to add more DE ports to the list of firefox dependencies. It seems to crash when trying to show the "open file" dialog, if gsettings-desktop-schemas is not installed.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Autism? No junk food or injections here.
<remiliascarlet>
farkuhar: Maybe consider a different browser, now that Mozilla no longer wants to make browsers.
<remiliascarlet>
Floorp might be a decent replacement. It's a Firefox fork.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: You keep saying that, but you provided nothing that actually proves it
<farkuhar>
Let's see what else pulls in gsettings-desktop-schemas ... gnome-desktop, glib-networking, appstream, easyeffects, seahorse, gimp, inkscape. Yeah, lots of software that normies might want.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: Sounds like my mom. I show her mountains of evidence, then she ignores it simply because she disagrees with it all, and a few months later claims I never provided any evidence.
<remiliascarlet>
And then asks why I "refuse to show any evidence". So I tell her, "I showed you all the evidence literally a few months ago, and you chose to ignore it and call it crazy, so why the fuck should I provide the same evidence again?".
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: But you didn't show any evidence. You just said it. I went and searched it and found nothing. Except that it would extend support older outdated versions until March 2025.
<remiliascarlet>
For starters, their official website states that they're a "global crew of activists" now.
<farkuhar>
remiliascarlet: I can just imagine the commit message ... "<cruxbot> [contrib/3.8] firefox: dropped, use floorp instead" (or as zorz would prefer, librewolf)
<remiliascarlet>
Librewolf has gone ultra-woke right after the Firefox backlash on their recent TOS changes.
<remiliascarlet>
They had a golden opportunity to take in refugees from Firefox, and then they snapped and declared to hate everyone on the right of the extreme far left.
<SiFuh_>
You still haven't provided any 'mountain' of evidence to support your claims
<remiliascarlet>
I did over the past few months, and then you tell me you don't like the person covering it.
<SiFuh_>
No you didn't
<remiliascarlet>
I did.
<SiFuh_>
You have only been saying it and provided NO evidence
<SiFuh_>
Go log search.
<SiFuh_>
If you had, I'd not have had to search the internet myself and I read everything you say in this chat.
<remiliascarlet>
"Some of the remedies proposed in the case risk the future of our Firefox browser and Gecko browser engine—the last remaining non-Big Tech browser engine." Mozilla is technically owned by Google. Not officially, but it's 90% of something of their revenue source, so they will do as Google tells them to do. Until August at least, because that's when Google will no longer be allowed to fund
<remiliascarlet>
them.
<SiFuh_>
Yeah that means nothing.
<SiFuh_>
But I want to read the court case filings.
<SiFuh_>
If you read further if this happens librewolf would no longer exist as well
<SiFuh_>
Because browsers like librewolf rely on Gecko
<remiliascarlet>
Once it exists, you can't unexist.
<remiliascarlet>
SGI is no longer in operation, but there are SGI computers going around the second hand markets, and copies of IRIX are available on Archive.org for example.
<remiliascarlet>
It's not like SGI going bankrupt has erased SGI workstations and IRIX from existence.
<SiFuh_>
In fact, it has noted in the past (and surely will again at the trial) that Mozilla would fold without all that Google money, and that's bad for user choice. However, the DOJ will probably point out that the massive revenue Apple and Mozilla get from these deals makes their testimony less reliable.
<remiliascarlet>
Likewise, Firefox changing their main business is not going to erase Firefox and Gecko from existence.
<remiliascarlet>
*Likewise, Mozilla changing their main business is not going to erase Firefox and Gecko from existence.
<SiFuh_>
Of course, I know this case. And I know that they want to chop up google. So google can't have all the power. But here is the kicker. International Intelligence loves google. So this will be an interesting case.
<SiFuh_>
And who cares if the Gecko dies. Someone might make a better core.
<remiliascarlet>
We can say that Ladybird is being developed at the right time, regardless of what will happen after August.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: Pale Moon? They forked Gecko and made it into Goanna, only to then copy Gecko.
<SiFuh_>
Pale Moon got booted from OpenBSD because of OpenBSD branding on their browser
<remiliascarlet>
I know, it was an ass move from the Pale Moon developers.
<SiFuh_>
Correction 'developer'
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: On that browser engine graphic, they didn't credit the Konqueror for KHTML, neither did they credit Safari for WebKit.
<SiFuh_>
And if every distro saw and said "This is bullshit" and booted Pale Moon. Then Pale Moon would have had no choice but to step back.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: It was childish. Who gives a shit as long as YOUR browser was chosen.
<SiFuh_>
Pale Moon basically in laymans terms said "You want to use our browser? We own. You do WHAT WE WANT."
<remiliascarlet>
"We also created or contributed to many developments for the wider ecosystem, some (like Rust and Let’s Encrypt) have continued to flourish outside of Mozilla." To be fair, Rust to Mozilla is like what Go is to Google. The corporation contributes and funds its development, and was started by their employees, but it's otherwise operated pretty much independently from their corpo's.
<SiFuh_>
And if you look at OpenBSD's long disputes between manufacturers and software companies, you will know that OpenBSD NEVER backs down and tells them to fuck off.
<SiFuh_>
And if Linux pussies were the same as OpenBSD and the other BSD's then the world today would be a much different place.
<remiliascarlet>
Well, the only reason why the Pale Moon guy got away with it is because he complained at a ports maintainer's Git server, not the actual OpenBSD mailing list.
<SiFuh_>
If I was Mozilla, I'd release all the source for Gecko to the public if they knew it was going down. And change the agreement too
<remiliascarlet>
We all know what happened to Richard Stallman when he got on the OpenBSD mailing list.
<SiFuh_>
OpenBSD is like the lone warrior that is actually fighting for freedom. All the other distros be it BSD and Linux are fucking pussy bitches that bend over and get fucked in the arse.
<remiliascarlet>
How about the Amiga community?
<SiFuh_>
Are they still around?
<remiliascarlet>
Yes.
<remiliascarlet>
Most of them are commercial OS's, but there's also the AROS project, which is free and open source.
<remiliascarlet>
I tried one distro in a VM. But not for long enough to really have an opinion on it.
<SiFuh_>
No 64 bit version?
<remiliascarlet>
Yes, it's pretty much an x86 and PowerPC only thing.
<SiFuh_>
ukky: Tomorrow is going to be fun. I will be sinking threaded rebars into the holes with resin. No one will be allowed near it till it cures. After the painting incident. I wonder how many are going to end up impaled, injured, or offcentre the rods.
<farkuhar>
zorz: I'm still running into these python3 ports that can't decide where to install their LICENSE files. I guess beerman didn't want to redefine make_footprint() as I suggested. https://n.uguu.se/rrRWVOiT.txt
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Thought they were something we were suppose to remove
<SiFuh_>
Packages should not contain “junk files”. This includes info pages and other online documentation, man pages excluded (e.g. usr/doc/*, README, *.info, *.html, etc).
<SiFuh_>
Files related to NLS (national language support), always use --disable-nls when available.
<SiFuh_>
Useless or obsolete binaries (e.g. /usr/games/banner and /sbin/mkfs.minix).
<SiFuh_>
Do not add new variables to the Pkgfile.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_: Well that's an even better solution. But on the maintainer's machine, the LICENSE file appears under a subdirectory, so if he only issued the `rm -rf $PKG/usr/lib/python3.12/site-packages/*dist-info/licenses/` command, then on my system the LICENSE file would still remain.
<SiFuh_>
Well I don't see Per mentioning LICENCE files
<SiFuh_>
core and opt are the two primary collections of CRUX. They're maintained by the CRUX development team which ensures that they're consistent and working well together. Those two collections are also enabled by default in CRUX.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: How many of our ports introduce new variables?
<farkuhar>
So if the location where the LICENSE file gets installed can vary from one system to the next, then the logic in build() would need to be more complicated to handle all the possible directories (thankfully only two so far).
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: I have always deleted LICENSE files. Exception is Virtualbox and Supertuxkart but they are both binary ports that I put under /usr/opt
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Hehehe Outlaw Linux. We don't give a flying fuck about your licences or your Pale Moon bullshit. Come and catch us.
<SiFuh_>
Our Dev team is full armed and special forces trained. Enjoy the game if you try.
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<zorz_>
ukky: 'lo
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: Stop channel spamming
<zorz_>
bitch!
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<SiFuh_>
zorz_: Today I was angry because Aunt Sally had a poop longer than her leg and fatter than two legs. I wondered, how did that come out of her butt.
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: I told the wife that if Aunt Sally doesn't eat her dinner, you don't feed her. Next day, wife is giving her snacks. But the dinner is finished and I shouted at her.
<SiFuh_>
Today I saw this massive poop. In the car, I was telling my wife that she HAS TO STOP feeding the dog. It isn't a garbage disposal unit. YOU ARE GOING TO KILL IT.
<SiFuh_>
Not even joking. 2 hours later, dog is sitting at the door and half her dinner has been eaten and wife is about to hand the dog snacks. FUCKING HELL!
<SiFuh_>
You know what is fucking karma? Wife complains that Aunt Sally isn't eating and the meat is expensive.
<SiFuh_>
I told the wife. I have a shovel in the back of your car. If Aunt Sally dies, you are digging the hole. NOT ME.
<zorz_>
haha you have issues!
<SiFuh_>
I am going to be drinking beer and sit back and watch that woman cry with every fucking scraping of soil until it is deep enough and say to her "Som Num Na" (Thai language, closest meaning is serves yourself right)
<SiFuh_>
Yes. I have a wife. That is my issue
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: Yesterday I shouted at her father because he gave Aunt Sally food. He lied to me and say he hadn't. I said "I just fucking watched you feed her". He said "Sorry, I won't do it again" Today he fed her again.
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: I really hate Chinese that lie all the fucking time. Seems like when the sun sets, their brain reboots and they forget everything.
<SiFuh_>
I wonder are they robots? I have been repeating myself for more than 2 years now. But they still fucking do shit
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: I think best remiliascarlet farkuhar emmett1 and I with ukky's help unless he really wants to join. Make our own distro. Stick to CRUX philosophy.
<SiFuh_>
As Per Liden, but since if it is a new distro, we could introduce runit even though I am against the idea and stand with remiliascarlet for the BSD style scripts
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: I already have a name
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: farkuhar: ukky: remiliascarlet: I think we need to make a set of laws like a constitution though. If you break those rules, you are gone.
<SiFuh_>
Protect us from egotistical people like beerman. You break that rule, and one says you have. Instant ban from dev status.
<SiFuh_>
zorz_: My idea is why use other people's shit when we can make own better shit
<SiFuh_>
emmett1 is a former distro maker, his skills will be great. Also he has a shell script version the package utils
<zorz_>
they change yesterday to old rc
<farkuhar>
You know who else has a shell script version of the package utils? therealfun. In my few exchanges with him through the old Flyspray instance, he implied it was naive of him to have put so much effort into improving CRUX, when the core team was clearly resistant to merging his patches. https://gitlab.com/therealfun/oprt
<farkuhar>
zorz_: What do you think of these distro names? Outlaw Linux. CROOKS. Crewks. Per CRUX (pronounced "pure").
<farkuhar>
Wow, beerman is decidedly unabashed about pushing an updated python3 with a much larger footprint than the previous build. "that size is nothing outstanding in 2025 Steffen, please accept that the world keeps spinning." https://git.crux.nu/ports/core/issues/17
<ukky>
SiFuh_: please ask everybody approaching your posts to prepare and notarize the will
<ukky>
hi zorz_
<zorz_>
ukky why everybody is using runit 2.1.2 and upstream is v2.2.0 ?
<zorz_>
CRUX/GNU
<zorz_>
farkuhar, CRUX/GNU
<zorz_>
only gcc and gnu core utils.
<farkuhar>
zorz_: Did you just let uwumeowmeownyaa take control of your nick?
<zorz_>
hahaha
<zorz_>
crux^2
<zorz_>
the root of crux
<zorz_>
crux^2
<zorz_>
hahaha
<zorz_>
rule No1 rust free... unless firefox. which builds with gcc but still needs runs for configs i think
<farkuhar>
therealfun opened several Flyspray tickets attempting to improve CRUX package management. FS#1476: Show the complete error message from signify. FS#1645: Report failures when compressing manpages. FS#1576: Flexible footprint check. Then he stopped contributing patches, because the core team clearly prioritized tasks other than the maintenance of core distro tools.
<zorz_>
Dalton Linux
<farkuhar>
SiFuh mentioned a "constitution" or set of rules to govern the distro. jw already wrote something like that for CRUX, and it hasn't been updated since 2006: https://crux.nu/Main/Mantra
<zorz_>
i dont see well beerman... the situation reminds me the movie Bounty 1984
<ukky>
I had an idea to create a new Linuix distro, but then changed my mind and decided to use NetBSD instead.
<farkuhar>
"easy to understand and extend" does apply to the BSD-style initscripts. In fact they were so easy to extend, that we got a 2.32 -> 2.33 "upgrade" consisting mostly of nested printf commands to sprinkle some colour into the startup messages.
<ukky>
Linux will be okay for as long as Linus is the BDFL
<ukky>
When Linus steps down, it will be bloated with all new bells and whistles
<zorz_>
farkuhar: aaa farkuhar the update should be named v2.44
<zorz_>
ukky: yes
<zorz_>
new kernels now, make defconfig && make hardening.config is a beauty :P
<ukky>
we are lucky that kdbus did not get through Linus into kernel.
<ukky>
Microsoft is Platinum member of Linux Foundation.
<zorz_>
recently a developer left... cause Linus refused to adapt rust in kernel fro the moment.
<zorz_>
i think rust compiles and downloads at the same time.... this is no good.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_ proposed an "Instant ban from dev status" for violating this new constitution. But we have a recent instance of somebody being subject to an "instant ban from dev status" (stenur), over something much more trivial than violating the principles of clean distro design.
<farkuhar>
So the idea of an instant ban doesn't sit well with me. I prefer dlcusa's idea of a formal voting mechanism.
<zorz_>
as i said.... to many crux channels.... gother in one, and share/give responsibilities.
<zorz_>
beerman is okay.... he compiles like crazy
<zorz_>
and full stop
<zorz_>
emoji full stop :P
<farkuhar>
zorz_: beerman is probably compiling and downloading at the same time. I thought you said that practice was no good?
<zorz_>
many mistakes.... its not proffesional.... let me find something if i remember correct
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<farkuhar>
The big problem with the mantra we inherited from jw is in the top line, "a distribution which suits the needs of its developers." By disempowering the users, this sentence can be used to justify the takeover of design decisions, once the core team gets too small for a rogue dev to be voted out. In order to avoid this outcome with a formal voting mechanism as dlcusa proposes, the users would need to have votes too.
<zorz_>
farkuhar: they are shrinking
<zorz_>
at the end... they will be 3-4
<farkuhar>
zorz_: Are you predicting the total number of CRUX *users* (not devs)? That's absurdly pessimistic. Even stenur continues to use CRUX, despite having been ejected from the team of maintainers.
<dlcusa>
How do you register the users and ensure they only vote once? IMHO, their votes can only inform decision-making by the developers, who should be expected to implement majority opinions unless there is unresolvable conflict with the principles of the distro.
<dlcusa>
I'd like to see developer votes include a measure of their contributions; e.g., 1 vote for each KB of source code and documentation accepted.
<farkuhar>
dlcusa: It would be unwieldy to poll the userbase for opinions on specific ports or features. I was imagining a voting system more along the lines of users having veto power over who gets to maintain the distro tools and the core repos.
<farkuhar>
In other words, users should be able to call for a vote of no confidence, if they feel the distro is straying too far from its principles. But the day-to-day decisions would still be in the hands of whomever the users entrust with the ongoing maintenance.
<farkuhar>
As for weighting any votes by amount of contribution, I don't think "LOC added" or "KB of documentation" is a useful metric. In striving for simplicity, we should not encourage frivolous additions, but instead we should incentivize work that *subtracts* the non-essential.