<SiFuh_>
zorz_: You missed it zorz_, I have erected the Great Wall to keep the Chinese from crossing over to my property and I have taken all their junk and moved it over to their side.
<SiFuh_>
Her mother was saying that the fence is good, for Aunt Sally. I said actually the fence is to keep you all out
<farkuhar>
remiliascarlet: SiFuh_: Twats and wankers are supposed to lose their hubris with the passage of time? How do you explain the persistent attitude of Void devs (every day is the worst day of their lives), even after so many years interacting with their userbase?
<SiFuh_>
Well, it took Han over 15 years to settle
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: He banned me from #OpenBSD for at least 10 years.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_: 15 years is almost as long as it took them to fix the issue you raised about /etc/rc.single, right?
<SiFuh_>
Rather than despising him, if I had an OpenBSD question within that 10 years, I'd email or pm him :-P Hahahaha
<SiFuh_>
18 years to fix the issue I told Per Liden about with the broken init system in CRUX. Ended up getting jaeger and jue who apparently had no clue what dropping down and going up init stages did.
<SiFuh_>
Rather than rebooting. You can just drop down runlevels and then back up. Maintain your uptime status.
<ukky>
SiFuh_: fence looks nice
<SiFuh_>
ukky: It's not finished. I will replace the nuts bolting it to the ground and add washers as well. Then I will cut the bolt lengths to a nice safe level. But yeah, after throwing all the neighbour's (Her parents) stuff from ourside to their side. Suddenly we have so much room. :-)
<farkuhar>
Speaking of runlevel switching ... is /sbin/init the only file we need to rename, to avoid collisions for users who want to install both runit and sysvinit? Or does runit also create files like /usr/share/man/man8/init.8 that might collide with the sysvinit footprint?
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<SiFuh_>
SiFuh: You are here
<SiFuh>
Master of the bloody obvious!
<SiFuh_>
Heh
<ukky>
farkuhar: runit installs its PID1 init as $PKG/sbin/runit-init. User has multiple choices: 1) Add kernel cmd line option 'init=/sbin/runit-init'; 2) Create link 'ln -ns runit-init /sbin/init'; 3) Rename: 'mv /sbin/runit-init /sbin/init'; 4) Create port 'core/sbin-init-runit'
<farkuhar>
ukky: I'm asking about the man-pages in the sysvinit footprint. Would they get clobbered by the corresponding files from runit, or does runit not provide any documentation like telinit(8) or reboot(8) or shutdown(8)?
<farkuhar>
You can tell it's been a while since I worked with a system that uses runit as PID1.
<ukky>
farkuhar: there is no telinit, reboot, shutdown provided by runit, it uses different CLI to reboot and shutdown. User can create shell scripts to emulate SystemV behavior.
<ukky>
farkuhar: manpages provided by runit (all in section 8): chpst, runit-init, runit, runsv, runsvchdir, runsvdir, sv, svlogd, utmpset.
<farkuhar>
ukky: Good to know. So it's only the /sbin/init that needs to be renamed, if the user wants to install both options side-by-side. No other collisions are possible.
<ukky>
farkuhar: correct. When both are installed and sysvinit gets updated, it will override /sbin/init if not renamed to /sbin/sysvinit-init.
<ukky>
There are should be two init selector ports: core/sbin-init-sysvinit and core/sbin-init-runit. Those just create a link /sbin/init pointing to appropriate init.
<ukky>
Only one of those init selectors should be installed (exclusive)
<ukky>
This way user can also add and set as default other init packages: sinit, dinit, s6, etc, without file collision.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: I just figured it out. beerman asked Bill Gates to modify the rc script in CRUX.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_: A few days ago you wrote "Figured that out in 2004", and I wasn't clear which of remiliascarlet's claims about FreeBSD you were referring to. The lack of quality control? Crashing the entire PC when CTRL+C is pressed in Konsole? I settled on overall suckiness because the other claims seemed too specific.
<farkuhar>
But here's a very specific claim: enlisting the help of Bill Gates for the rewrite of /etc/rc. If true, it's no surprise we got such an abomination.
<farkuhar>
Anyway, this channel boasts at least two OpenBSD users (SiFuh and remiliascarlet), and one NetBSD user (ukky). I seem to recall stenur having spent a fair bit of time with FreeBSD, so if we could entice him to join us, then all the major BSDs would be represented.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Quality control.
<SiFuh_>
I was an OpenBSD and CRUX guy then. But still running FreeBSD for servers. I was called from Thailand to build a server in the Jungles of West Malaysia and even though I built the guys machine, I thought to myself. "You know what? This FreeBSD is really shit" So I ended up upgrading all the servers I built to OpenBSD including my own.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Is also a NetBSD user too and her knowledge of other Operating Systems is very similar probably consistant with mine.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: And to be fair. I think you underestimate remiliascarlet's knowledge base.
<SiFuh_>
Although that being said. I am unsure if she has ever used Alpha, VAX II or the original software, including punch cards and tape drives as I have. But I am quite err, old as you'd say.
<SiFuh_>
And I doubt anyone here has ever layed their hands on an IBM XT. Oh that brings back memories
<SiFuh_>
My families first PC was an IBM XT with PC DOS :-P
<SiFuh_>
We mostly played games on it though like Off-Road Racer, Into the Eagles Nest and Defender of the Crown
<farkuhar>
The first part of jw's CRUX Mantra has this advice: simplicity doesn't scale, making something "just a bit" more complex isn't "simple" anymore. Apply this advice to the python3 ports (which jaeger admits are getting more complicated), and you might have to trim down a huge chunk of the contrib repo.
<SiFuh_>
Crux can never be simple again
<SiFuh_>
That is a fact. But it should be kept simple as best as we can
<SiFuh_>
And I still vote for move all compilation tools to comp repo. :-P
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Here is another concept you may have missed. What if a CRUX user has his own prebuilt ports and wants a CRUX server. So he transfers those prebuilt ports to his server but has NO compilation tools on that server?
<farkuhar>
As remiliascarlet put it, CRUX should keep being CRUX, in order to prevent users from leaving. For starters, let's just revert all the fancy changes that Bill Gates wrote for our /etc/rc.
<SiFuh_>
Hehehe
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: You make me laugh sometimes :-P
<SiFuh_>
Real laugh, not sarcastic
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_: Well if you're going to replace the current "dialog"-based installation method with OpenBSD-style installsets (a la akosela), then yes, a separate installset for the compilers might make sense. But if you keep the ncurses interactive dialog, then a savvy user can just deselect gcc, binutils, and anything else they don't need (if they have prebuilt packages from another machine).
<farkuhar>
The second part of jw's CRUX Mantra (Recent technologies and software) was probably not intended to conflict with part 1 (simple to understand and extend), but these days it's harder to incorporate the bloated crap that appears in popular ecosystems and languages, without violating the tenet of simplicity.
<farkuhar>
You might reach the conclusion "CRUX can never be simple again" by insisting that "Recent technologies and software" has a higher priority than "Simple to understand and extend", so we have to keep python3 with all its complexity even if it violates the first point. But I think jw wrote the Mantra in descending order of importance, so that if two of the design considerations come into conflict, the
<dlcusa>
Sorry, SiFuh, my 1st PC was pre-X--floppy disk only. My first computer (at IT trade school) was an S360/22 (16KB core) with two hard drives and two 2400 tape units.
<farkuhar>
earlier one takes precedence.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: I used those too but not mine.
<farkuhar>
Searching for "Mantra" in the mailing list archives only turns up one thread, from August 2006 when jw shared a first draft and incorporated tilman's suggestion. Apparently the Mantra never got much discussion in later years, even when weighty decisions were being made that would impact the distro's simplicity.
<farkuhar>
In retrospect, jw was too trusting in his fellow devs when he prefaced his draft with the claim "I believe that having a clear idea of how we want to build crux is important, and I think such a page can help there."
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Here is a thought. What if we follow per's example. Could we possibly boot the modern CRUX out and tell them they have no right to the name? And we take it over?
<SiFuh_>
A hostile takeover
<SiFuh_>
I think we may need Per though
<dlcusa>
That may involve real lawyers in the nu realm.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: I doubt it to be honest. CRUX is CRUX it is a non-game
<dlcusa>
I'm talking about crux.nu resources.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: We call back per, ask him his laws and if in favour of maybe... but in general, I doubt any law will touch it.
<SiFuh_>
Oh I care zero about that
<dlcusa>
If crux.nu persists as is, newbies could be confused about the real CRUX.
<SiFuh_>
okay guys. Per + crux. Find us a name.
<SiFuh_>
Per's CRUX
<SiFuh_>
I care zero about newbies dlcusa.
<dlcusa>
You were once a CRUX newbie.
<SiFuh_>
Our goal is to create Per's CRUX Linux back to what he wanted
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: I was there in the beginning. In fact... I am the only first one left.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: And for the record. Per and I hated each other.
<dlcusa>
Newbies are needed to pick up the slack of those who move on.
<SiFuh_>
here I am 20 years later fighting for his ways! Hehe
<dlcusa>
Ces't la vie.
<dlcusa>
s/Ces't/C'est/
<SiFuh_>
Life is fscking funny
<dlcusa>
A reasonable paraphrase.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: Here is an interesting thought for you. Per and I fell out of friendship due to rc being fscked up. Not here we are today bitching about the beermans rc and wanting to revert back to Per's way.
<SiFuh_>
Not/Now
<dlcusa>
History rhymes.
<SiFuh_>
I just think it is funny to be honest
<dlcusa>
Oh, it's a howler, all right.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: farkuhar: remiliascarlet: I don't know how other human brains work, but mine repeats constantly and plays back all instances in my memory at once. I found I can connect dots like really fast. It is annoying to close your eyes and see at the same time over a million stories replayed instantly. But I learned to live with it. I didn't realise it was unusual until I discovered some people then
<SiFuh_>
most people don't have this.
<dlcusa>
Understandable.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: Here is one to blow your mind. I have memories of my father, before i was born
<dlcusa>
No, no mind blown. The question is how did you come by such memories.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: Actually I think my mother was so emotional about what she had learned it was imprinted into me
<dlcusa>
Good theory.
<dlcusa>
I am called away again. Later.
<SiFuh_>
My father left my mother. I remember it. He'd just discovered he was going to be father of twins. I asked my father "Why did you leave mum?" He was shocked said "What are you talking about" Then I told him the story.
<SiFuh_>
Both mum and dad were staring each other trying to figure out how I could have know this story and even describe the scene inluding the suitcases and clothes he was wearing. Interestingly I do not know what mum was wearing. It was like I was seeing through her eyes.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Do you think you could contact Per and ask him what his original goal was?
<farkuhar>
SiFuh_: Why me? I don't have any prior relationship with Per, it would be awkward to contact him out of the blue.
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Yeah, sorry he would probably only reply to an English speaker with good command of the English langauge