<midfavila>
good progress today, it's self-hosting for sure
<midfavila>
have libressl and links and stuff up
<midfavila>
tomorrow, X
<nooticer>
libressl my beloved
<midfavila>
bearssl soon
<midfavila>
= w=
<midfavila>
honestly now that i have the basics sorted it's mostly just a matter of making some alterations to my build scripts so that they don't need kiss
<midfavila>
which is easy enough
<midfavila>
just tedious
<kris_>
midfavila: bootstrapping from a kiss host with the tarball script?
<midfavila>
you mean kiss-export, or..?
<midfavila>
either way, no, this was bootstrapped by hand from a slack host
<sad_plan>
kiss-export was removed a long time ago though. are you still going through with using pm midfavila ?
<midfavila>
yeap
<midfavila>
everything so far is done up using pm
<sad_plan>
and just some wrapper scripts for it or how did you solve pm's missing bits?
<sad_plan>
neat
<midfavila>
tbqh i just didn't
<sad_plan>
did you patch out libarchive?
<midfavila>
the missing bits aren't really a problem
<midfavila>
no, not yet
<midfavila>
that's on the list
<sad_plan>
ah, so you just do it manually instead?
<sad_plan>
right
<midfavila>
well, usually i just loop over everything and fetch sources in advance
<sad_plan>
I see
<midfavila>
then untar, cd, mkdir temproot, run the buildscript, and tar up the temproot
<midfavila>
then pm -a category-lang-package@version.number.tgz
<midfavila>
then that pack gets stored under /var/db/packages
<sad_plan>
you could do something like oasis' port repo does. not to be confused with oasis itself though. it handles shasums, and downloads for the sources for you. https://github.com/oasislinux/ports
<sad_plan>
right
<midfavila>
ngl i don't really think i need a script to do that
<midfavila>
at least rn
<midfavila>
it's just for p in * ; do cd $p ; for url in $(grep http sources) ; do wget $url ; done ; cd .. ; done
<midfavila>
add additional for loops for each category
<midfavila>
e.g. data dev sys lib
<sad_plan>
I suppose so. I like the format from this ports repo anyhow, for things not tracked by anything else. I just build gcc with it though. nothing else really. and its then prompty tracked by git instead
<midfavila>
or another for core base x11 extra, etc etc
<sad_plan>
how do you track dependencies though? even with only a few dependencies, it does quickly get tedious. atleast with rebuilds imo
<midfavila>
everything in a broad category e.g. base expects everything from that broad category's lib/ to be installed, as well as previous "levels"
<midfavila>
atm just core/
<midfavila>
anything that's unusual i guess i would just put in a readme
<sad_plan>
that doesnt really answer my question
<midfavila>
but like, almost everything i have only depends on basic posix stuff
<midfavila>
so
* midfavila
shrugs
<midfavila>
i guess a simpler answer would be "i don't"
<sad_plan>
I see
<midfavila>
i used to daily LFS in high school so between that and slackware it's not really something i'm uncomfortable with
<sad_plan>
I suppose whatever floats your boat. I would hate having to specify the order of things to make things build in the correct order
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<kris_>
yeah no proper dependency resolution isnt something i personally would want to deal with
<midfavila>
:3c
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<sad_plan>
dependency resolution becomes exponentially more complex as package count grows really.. hell, even dealing with just Xlibs for something as trivial as dmenu from scratch quickly grows into a headache :p
<nooticer>
dependency resolution is easy if u don't use a bunch of slop
<nooticer>
though most people use computers for the slop
<sad_plan>
not having complex dependency resolutions gets difficult real quick if you wanna use your computer for anything worthwhile really. atleast for most people. I like to think I have a fairly simple system, (although I could have a simpler system) I still think I have somewhat complex dependencies..
<sad_plan>
switching to wayland would surely decrease my complexity though
<nooticer>
yea if u already use wayland slop (e.g. pipewire, dbus, xdg-desktop-portal, etc.)
<nooticer>
s/wayland/redhat/
<sad_plan>
I would not be using any of that C:
<nooticer>
they're kinda hard to live without on wayland + lots of dependencies
<kris_>
sad_plan: depends on how you look at it probably
<nooticer>
kris_: r u krum
<kris_>
you're getting simpler software with more cognitive load due to all of the random shit you need to make it work
<kris_>
nooticer: yeah wtf i just pinged you to ask if you're who i think you are
<nooticer>
yea i'm lenny
<kris_>
tf gm
<kris_>
didn't expect to see you here
<nooticer>
i quit discord like 5 days ago and got bored
<sad_plan>
nooticer: I disagree. just use velox, and you dont need any of that. hell even with sway, last time I checked, you dont need much of that really
<kris_>
yeah i was wondering where you had gone
<kris_>
sad_plan: ehhh you kinda need the portals and dbus
<nooticer>
sad_plan: screen recording and stuff tho
<kris_>
pipewire is negligible unless you want screen recording
<kris_>
in which case you need it
<sad_plan>
I dont care for screen recording
<nooticer>
i use screen recording all the time so i rlly depend on xorg
<kris_>
then keep chugging along with alsa or whatever it may be
<sad_plan>
pretty sure I can get by with just alsa
<kris_>
i screen record just fine via pipewire on sway
<kris_>
only issue is that you can't pick a specific window to capture but thats a limitation of the wlr portal
<kris_>
it works on all other portals
<sad_plan>
I will keep using alsa, untill using alsa is a greater pain that using something else really :p
<sad_plan>
right
<nooticer>
if u use pipewire then u have to pull like 10 other dependencies
<sad_plan>
so no pipewire for me then
<nooticer>
there should be a drop in replacement for pipewire that just does screen recording
<kris_>
would be nice
<kris_>
though id still just use pipewire because it works well with whatever application i might be using
<kris_>
pulseaudio didn't even manage that
<sad_plan>
also, for my gui stack, its like <10 packages, but getting them is something along the lines of 140 packages in total. its ridiculous..
<kris_>
i have quite a few
<kris_>
sway + dbus + elogind + pipewire + gtk and wlr portals + waybar + fuzzel + few other minor things like fnott
<sad_plan>
right. iirc, its actually 9 packages for me. glazier (my wm), tinyx, sxhkd, st, dmenu, cmus, mupdf and luakit. I do use surf sometimes aswell, but thats not too often
<sad_plan>
oh, I forgot about wmutils
<sad_plan>
so 10 actually
<nooticer>
tinyx
<sad_plan>
wait, I also use bgs for setting background. in any case, its very few. and current package cound using kiss, is 140. which is just stupid when you thin about it
<sad_plan>
nooticer: yes
<nooticer>
desktop?
<nooticer>
i feel like tinyx would kill my laptop
<sad_plan>
laptop. its terrible on higher resolutions really. my desktop had a ultrawide screen earlier before it broke, and tinyx was just awefull
<nooticer>
ic
<sad_plan>
nah, it just works. it isnt fast by any strech of imagination, but it works sufficently for wathcing series on mpv or through webbrowser. or just messing around with programming or scripting
<nooticer>
i've been thinking about playing around with arcan
<sad_plan>
best thing about it is that you can statically link it
<nooticer>
can't u statically link xorg
<sad_plan>
I fail to see any usecase for arcan really. theres basically no software for it
<sad_plan>
you can, but you can only load one driver at a time or someting like that.
<sad_plan>
the sabotage guy did it ages ago
<sad_plan>
as in sabotage linux
<sad_plan>
his not doing it anymore, so theres someone else who runs the show now
<nooticer>
sounds cool
<kris_>
sad_plan: thoughts on crux?
<kris_>
i don't think ive asked you that but i have asked quite a few here so
<sad_plan>
they take a *less insane* approach now I suppose. as opposed to just disregard any sanity and just statically link everything
<sad_plan>
kris_: never used crux myself, i know z3bra swears by it. I dont really see any benefit over kiss though
<sad_plan>
perhaps bigger ports systems? if thats even a pro
<kris_>
really the only benefit would be their huge repo
<kris_>
and maybe their init
<kris_>
kinda sucks that it's more or less glibc only
<kris_>
easy to fix that though tbf
<nooticer>
nvm arcan does look kinda cringe
<sad_plan>
kris_: you can probably bootstrap crux with musl, but youre on your own :p
<sad_plan>
nooticer: exacly
<kris_>
it wouldnt be much effort
<kris_>
just pulling patches from alpine or w/e
<sad_plan>
wouldnt be much worse than just rolling your own kiss repo really
<kris_>
im just looking at a bunch of shit rn
<kris_>
ill try slackware in a vm at some point to satisfy midfavila but no dep resolution is ridiculous
<sad_plan>
I agree
<kris_>
it's not much more complex but makes the system so much less annoying to use once you want to actually use your computer
<sad_plan>
exacly. I get that you can skip it if youre building a tiny chroot with just busybox or some shit, but for anything more complex than that I could not bare with no dependency resolution at all...
<kris_>
my thing with both kiss and crux is that packages are built raw on the host in just a temp dir
<kris_>
it would be cool to do it in a chroot instead of bwrap it maybe
<kris_>
i know the tarball builds are isolated with bwrap
<sad_plan>
theres been talk about that, but it never really came to fruition
<kris_>
at some point i might try to implement it
<kris_>
just really reading any of dylans shell script stuff is incredibly difficult
<kris_>
not that its bad, it's anything but
<kris_>
just can be hard to follow
<kris_>
i figure kiss is simpler than something like birch though
<sad_plan>
I kinda dont see the benefit, appart from perhaps avoiding *poisoning* packages by introducing dependencies not listed as a dependency
<kris_>
basically that
<kris_>
and trying to prevent projects from being sneaky by pulling things in from the internet during config
<kris_>
though the fundamental issue is still just untrustworthy upstreams
<kris_>
and also to make sure that when you build a package it's not a dirty build due to the host
<kris_>
like if you've missed a dependency or something because your host has it installed
<sad_plan>
most of this can more often than not be fixed by simply disabling every possible option you don want though
<kris_>
its just a reasonable thing to want and doesnt make it much more complicated
<kris_>
the kiss-utils tarball script already uses bwrap to keep the resulting rootfs tarball clean
<sad_plan>
hm, didnt know that
<nooticer>
just use trustworthy software
<sad_plan>
fucking finally. next crew just arrived at work. time to go home and go to bed
<sad_plan>
gn
<kris_>
gn
<nooticer>
gn
<kris_>
nooticer: yeah that's the real solution but to me at least its still a good bump for not much more complex
<kris_>
i think im using the typical normal fortune
<midfavila>
aaaaaaa god it's so weird to think that some of those quotes are from like 3-4 years ago
<midfavila>
i was still in college
<kris_>
:p
<kris_>
i look at things i did 4 years ago and i'm like
<kris_>
"damn, it's ONLY been 4 years?"
<kris_>
though honestly it's kind of meaningless
<kris_>
DMT type beat
<midfavila>
i mean yeah
<midfavila>
everything is fuckin fried
<kris_>
i havent been able to really experience time progression since someone drugged me with DMT
<kris_>
at least not in the same way
<midfavila>
isnt dmt that super fukin crazy shit that makes you see god
<kris_>
it's like, the psychedelic consumers final destination once they think they're prepared for it
<kris_>
was the first one i ever did, on accident obviously hence the >got drugged thing
<midfavila>
i can only imagine how that would have gone down holy fucking shit :v
<kris_>
i mean
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<kris_>
i was smoking weed with this one guy for like a full year daily so i trusted him
<kris_>
he hands me a vape and i think absolutely nothing of it
<kris_>
he timed it perfectly for when i got off the schoolbus too
<kris_>
so i'm walking off and starting to trip and get off the bus and just bop on the noggin
<kris_>
bop on the noggin with tripping sack i mean
<midfavila>
that's fucked
<kris_>
i never spoke to that guy again
<midfavila>
yeah i mean definitely
<kris_>
even if it was the most beautiful thing ive ever experienced, consent with that is #1
<kris_>
and maybe not while im on the schoolbus lmao
<kris_>
fucking jackass that one was
<midfavila>
yeh
<kris_>
but yeah to sum it up it's kind of difficult for me to understand it now because during that i was exposed to an environment where time just didnt exist outside of a physical concept
<kris_>
i dont want to sound like one of those dorks who act like it's some sort of revelation though, it fucked me up
<kris_>
kinda just always >right now
<kris_>
at the same time though it feels like the right now can extend for forever so hence the "it's only been 4 years??"
<kris_>
midfavila: what do you think about perl
<midfavila>
python for boomers
<midfavila>
it's in the fortunes file
<kris_>
ok mid what languages do you like
<midfavila>
forth
<midfavila>
scheme
* midfavila
shrugs
<midfavila>
i like basic as like, a *statement*, if not a tool
<kris_>
mmmmmm bash
* kris_
licks his lips
<midfavila>
aaaaaaaaaaaaa i hate how expensive whey protein is
<kris_>
fuck out the whey
<midfavila>
wut
<midfavila>
oh
<midfavila>
pun
* midfavila
facedesks
<midfavila>
related
<midfavila>
one thing i hate?
<midfavila>
the fact that stores that sell by weight are more expensive than those that sell discrete units
<midfavila>
like, significantly
<midfavila>
:|
<midfavila>
*let* me get all my stuff in my jars and bags and such
<midfavila>
instead of plastic
<kris_>
hemp plastic
<kris_>
i'll actually pay more money for hemp plastic things
<midfavila>
hemp in general needs to be more common
<midfavila>
i have 100% hemp bed sheets, they rock
<kris_>
im just a little bit surprised just *how much stuff* can be made out of hemp
<midfavila>
it's a very versatile plant, yeah
<midfavila>
food, clothing, paper, building materials of all sorts
<kris_>
truly a gift
<midfavila>
plastics
<midfavila>
medicine
<midfavila>
all using less land and water than cotton, and far more quickly and reliably
<midfavila>
and it enriches the soil
<kris_>
some people in my family grew hemp for a little bit but it ended up burning them
<kris_>
most of them have always grown tobacco right
<kris_>
and hemp cant be taken across certain state lines
<midfavila>
yeah
<kris_>
so they ended up wasting a season on it
<kris_>
i might grow ..flavored hemp at some point myself given it's 100% allowed
<kris_>
im curious what i could make out of the undesireable bits
<midfavila>
define unddesirable
<kris_>
like make on my own i mean
<midfavila>
undesirable even
<kris_>
stem and leaves
<midfavila>
stem and leaves can just be pulped
<midfavila>
beyond that, i doubt much
<kris_>
pulped for what
<midfavila>
paper
<kris_>
o
<kris_>
i wonder how hard it would be to make paper out of hemp stems myself
<kris_>
could be somewaht interesting
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<midfavila>
idk it's just fibrous plant matter finely blended with water and then pressed and dried in the sun or w/e
<midfavila>
i'm not a paper-maker
<kris_>
ill look into it
<midfavila>
but it seems easy enough
<kris_>
our garden is getting huge
<midfavila>
i wish i had a garden
<midfavila>
plant potatoes
<midfavila>
hell yeah
<kris_>
we have a bunch of shit
<kris_>
the mint is taking over the garden though
<kris_>
it spreads so rapidly
<kris_>
jalapenos, two tomato plants, mint, basil, few other things
<kris_>
bell peppers
<kris_>
the plants are just getting really large
<midfavila>
i would save so much money if i had a garden
<midfavila>
bell peppers are unreal
<midfavila>
like in regards to cost
<kris_>
not a big fan of them
<midfavila>
stuff them
<kris_>
i'm a sucker for jalapenos though, one of my favorite flavors
<midfavila>
:3c
<midfavila>
jalapenos suck
<kris_>
??????????
<midfavila>
they don't taste like anything
<kris_>
u suck
<kris_>
they totally do
<midfavila>
they're the white sugar of spice
<kris_>
habaneros are the shit ones
<midfavila>
habaneros are way better what
<midfavila>
fuck you
<kris_>
they taste like they look
<kris_>
i already know if something is orange im gonna hate it
<kris_>
i hate the taste of orange
<kris_>
midfavila: honestly ghost peppers don't taste like much but the flavor they do have is pretty nice
<kris_>
i like to get ghost pepper cheese
<kris_>
hoffmans to be specific
<midfavila>
ghost peppers are nice
<midfavila>
i've had those uhhh
<midfavila>
pakis ghost pepper tortilla chips before
<midfavila>
they're delicious
<kris_>
those seem artificially hot to me
<midfavila>
they're definitely quite hot, artificial or not
<midfavila>
but super yummy
<midfavila>
it's kinda trashy but there's this place in my city that's like
<midfavila>
liquidation world but for food?????????????
<midfavila>
???????
<kris_>
it just depends for me
<midfavila>
so you can go in and get like
<kris_>
i dont like it when things get so hot that it actually like fucks me up bad
<kris_>
actual ghost pepper? fine
<kris_>
most of the things advertised as that are like concentrate
<kris_>
tastes like shit and is agony to eat
<midfavila>
restaurant-size stuff that's still sealed and cheaper than consumer grade
<midfavila>
hmm
<midfavila>
maybe
<midfavila>
idk i don't find them that spicy
<midfavila>
the chips i mean
<midfavila>
man my dietitian last i spoke to them said i should eat more salmon but it's so fucking expensive
<midfavila>
12.50 for a pound
<midfavila>
that's one thing i miss about new brunswick
<midfavila>
the farmers market had a fishmonger who would fillet salmon on the spot for you for like 14/kg
<kris_>
i feel like salmon is a vegetable
<midfavila>
explain
<kris_>
i just feel like ive eaten a vegetable after i eat salmon
<midfavila>
skill issue
<midfavila>
speaking of skill issues holy shit grocery prices went up again
<midfavila>
literally just some frozen fruit and veg and some chicken and pollock and shit
<midfavila>
milk and eggs and yogurt and bread etc
<midfavila>
450$
* midfavila
dies
<kris_>
i fucking love fried pollock
<kris_>
and yeah its ridiculous how expensive groceries are now
<kris_>
its time to just >own chickens
<kris_>
and just >own some plants
<midfavila>
imagine owning the means of production
<kris_>
cant wait until tomatoes that can reproduce are illegal
<midfavila>
i would rent a plot but the nearby community garden rents out these shitty little ones for like 100CAD a month
<midfavila>
god
<midfavila>
I FUCKING HATE THAT WE WON'T RAISE INTEREST RATES
<midfavila>
CRANK THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS HOLY SHIT
<midfavila>
i don't CARE about people's fucking mortgages because I'M THE ONE PAYING IT
<midfavila>
if they lose their house i don't fucking care
<midfavila>
im so done
<kris_>
idk our rent is pretty not bad
<kris_>
and we have a yard that we can kinda just plant things in
<midfavila>
america's economy is significantly less turbofucked than canada's
<midfavila>
canada is like
<midfavila>
right before 2008,
<midfavila>
except worse
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<nooticer>
fr canada is so cooked
<midfavila>
are you from canada also, nooticer?
<nooticer>
nah but i have a few canadian acquaintances
<midfavila>
fair
<midfavila>
yeah i've had to move across the country just to afford shit and like
<midfavila>
in the past year so many things have just doubled in price
<midfavila>
it's insane
<nooticer>
wonder what caused it
<midfavila>
low interest rates and housing speculation
<midfavila>
that's literally it
<midfavila>
all of our money goes to servicing household debt
<midfavila>
and because interest rates are insanely low people can "afford" to take on seven figures
<midfavila>
especially because "the line goes up which means the bigger the house i get the bigger the payoff"
<midfavila>
but nobody ever seems to realise you need to actually *sell* your house to make your money back
<midfavila>
combine that with the TFW programme to import workers and effectively chain their residency to their job, and you have multiple generations of youth with no access to serious employment,
<midfavila>
and the fact that over the past 50 years, adjusted for inflation, real wages have been cut in half...
<midfavila>
yeha
<midfavila>
yeah*
<nooticer>
what about home equity n stuff
<midfavila>
doesn't mean shit
<midfavila>
it's all imaginary money until someone buys your house
<midfavila>
like if you buy your house for 500k
<nooticer>
true
<midfavila>
and you pay off so it's 450k
<midfavila>
and the house goes up to 600k
<midfavila>
in theory you have 150k in equity
<midfavila>
in practice, all that means is that you can borrow 150k against your house
<midfavila>
because nobody can afford to buy
<nooticer>
usually the government is good with imaginary money tho
<midfavila>
so it's just a game of hot potao
<midfavila>
potato*
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<kris_>
curse of ra
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<sad_plan>
omg, Ive been trying to get conty to work for a really long time really, not that ive been making much effort for it, but it turns out it requires PROC_SYSCTL in the kernel...
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<asimov>
welcome to my life
<asimov>
a lot of things dont work and probably is kernel settings
<sad_plan>
yeah thats not something new for me really. but things been working just fine for quite a while now. my system is more or less stable now
<asimov>
mine too
<asimov>
but still missing things that i need sometimes
<asimov>
screensharing
<asimov>
and some programs
<sad_plan>
dont care much for that, so thats a non-issue for me really. I got more or less what I want running initially anyway. theres obviosly some room for improvements though
<asimov>
the main problem for me is just calibre and audio software
<asimov>
those things are too big for kiss
<asimov>
and i think Reaper don't run in musl
<sad_plan>
just use conty
<asimov>
and i need xwayland shit to run it on flatpak that is a sad news when i discover it
<asimov>
yeah thats not the main problem
<asimov>
flatpak just works too
<sad_plan>
conty is simpler
<sad_plan>
and you can have flatpak inside conty, and simply avoid the dependencies on your system