klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<Ermine> does conformance to http mean something to portal?
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<Ermine> that's gorgeous
<Mutabah> Neat
<Ermine> > Onix [Onyx Corp]
<Ermine> heat: ^
<Ermine> Clicking on the names breaks the page though
<n00by> same stuff, less detailed
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<heat> Onyx!!!!!
<heat> onyx is technically a very far descendent of sortix
<heat> but i wouldn't imagine them to understand the intricacies of Meaty Skeleton
<nikolar> lol
<sortie> heat: Meaty skeleton might really be one of the biggest contributions I've made :)
<sortie> Like I saw so many new systems and they could do Bare Bones but had no idea how to actually structure their project. How to set up a cross-compiler and sysroot and all that
<Ermine> i've downloaded meaty skeleton and started with restructuring it
<sortie> <geist> oh hey this is fun https://eylenburg.github.io/os_familytree.htm ← Sortix made the list \o/
<geist> yep! also little kernel and newos!
<sortie> Really impressive crazy about of investigation went into this
<n00by> yall are famous
<heat> Onyx also made the list
<geist> yay
<heat> Ermine saw the fake one
<sortie> Would be fun to bundle up all the hobby OS's that contain trace amounts of Bare Bones / Meaty Skeleton
<sortie> heat: tbf you really need a domain and a unique name
<heat> i have a unique enough name
<nikolar> n00by: we aren't, don't worry
<sortie> speak for yourself I was on the newspaper cover last week
<sortie> :P
<heat> i've been on lwn a few times
<nikolar> sortie is officially famous
<sortie> get off my lwn
<sortie> lwn is awesome tho
<heat> no lwn love? lame
<sortie> $LC_CORP is still paying for my lwn access
<heat> shhhhh
<sortie> They have an internal form where you can sign up for free LWN and uh they forgot to database join that with the set of employed employees
<heat> i would shut the fuck up if i were you
<geist> i can tell you 100% that nothing of mine has any dna in bare bones / meaty skeleton
<heat> self snitching on a public channel with plenty of google people is insane
<sortie> lc_corp do lc_corp i don't care
<nikolar> lol
<sortie> I'll just purchase lwn myself when they finally catch up until then I just consider it a charity donation to an open source newspaper institution that's beneficial to the community
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<n00by> and you guys cruise thru the intel manuals like it's a bunch of peanut butter sandwiches :P
<nikolar> lol
<nikolar> you just read the thing
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<n00by> hey btw, on a different note, stuff like this is so rare to find nowadays https://www.homebrewcpu.com/overview.htm
<n00by> you guys have no idea how much i admire this shit https://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/Magic_in_case_cropped.jpg
<nikolar> that was always rare
<nikolar> there are a lot of fpga cpu projects though
<n00by> another day of me realizing that master GeDaMo is indeed someone special :P
<n00by> fine work
<GeDaMo> Also, if you like front panels, there are some PDP machines (based on RPis) you can buy
<n00by> anyway, $270 for the kit, i wish i was rich :(
<n00by> nikolar: ye, those are plenty
<GeDaMo> n00by: https://nandgame.com/
<n00by> ty, i also took a course in digital electronics before dropping out, so that was cool :3
<n00by> iirc some hackaday article showed a guy hookin a 386 into a breakout board, it was barely working lol
<n00by> oh, err, it was a 486
<n00by> nand2tetris was fun, i only implemented the circuits in a basic simulator though, no verilog or synthesis tools
<n00by> i'll definitely try to get into those at some point, however the fpga stuff is still less rewarding that assembling real ICs. same thing with getting dev boards, it feels someone already did most of the work :(
<nikolar> well not really
<nikolar> fpgas are a whole different beast
<nikolar> and you do 99% of the work
<GeDaMo> I was interested in electronics before computers came along, I discovered I'm terrible at soldering :P
<nikolar> GeDaMo: well, fpgas are perfect for you then :P
<GeDaMo> Yeah, I should really get one and give it a try
<nikolar> there are really cheap ones around
<nikolar> (though also not particularly impressive)
<nikolar> ice40up5k based ones also have an open source toolchain so have fun :)
<n00by> thanx nikolar :)
<GeDaMo> Yeah, I'd want an open source toolchain
<nikolar> i know, that's why i mentioned
<nikolar> imagine having to deal with all those shitty proprietary ides
<nikolar> GeDaMo: ok that's really cool
<nikolar> > They also informed me that apparently SGI destroyed Cray’s old software archives before spinning them off again in the late 90’s
<nikolar> well, rip
<GeDaMo> Why would anyone ever want old software? :|
<nikolar> :(
<nikolar> why did they purposefully destroy all of it, before just spinning it off anyway
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<Ermine> Oh wow, Plasma 6.4.0 has hit Fedora faster than OpenSUSE Tumbleweed
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<heat> Ermine: arch btw doesn't have it either
<Ermine> fedora rolls it faster
<nikolar> i think arch's is about to drop really soon lol
<nikolar> they are built, just not in stable i think
<nortti> < geist> yep! also little kernel and newos! ← interesting that fuchsia is totally unconnected to lk there, isn't zircon built off of lk?
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<heat> Yeah
<heat> Send a patch
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<kof673> https://github.com/kej715/ack This fork of the Amsterdam Compiler Kit supports the Cray X-MP supercomputer and the COS operating system platform
<nikolar> great, send it to the guy who's writing a cray emulator lol
<kof673> there is one follow the links :D
<kof673> lol > A significant challenge, however, is how to move cross-compiled executables onto a simulated Cray X-MP. One solution is to install DtCyber and leverage its ability to run Cray Station software.
<kof673> just simulate a cdc to allow you to transfer your ack-built C programs over
<kof673> > Then we're stuck with gorillas! No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death. # j/k
<kof673> i am more curious what the cpu is, but building the cos tools + ack looks simple
<kof673> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8674743/is-int-by-default-signed-long-int-in-c that thinks 64-bit for all C integer types? but don't know if that is true or what ack does :D
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<kof673> other stuff, 16-bit, 24-bit minimum type size, 32-bit ...supposed 64-bit char there? it is important to test your code on multiple environments /s
<the_oz> or use non retarded type suites
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<Shaddox404> Hello, I was wondering what it would take to make the "Liquid Glass" effect in upcoming Apple's OSes. In terms of GPU load, computation, performance impact, battery life and beyond all, how practical it is to use such a design...
<nikolar> the blurring effects will be expensive
<nikolar> so might the battery life difference might be noticable
<the_oz> shader math
<the_oz> the comparison is before and after it already was doing shader stuff so surely it's not that difficult
<the_oz> it isn't like they were great on batter before
<heat> the blurring effect should not be expensive in normal circumstances
<heat> i.e static screen
<heat> windowing systems and launchers, etc aren't game engines, they're not rendering at a constant rate
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<the_oz> how many dirty rects can there be on mobile
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<Shaddox404> > windowing systems and launchers, etc aren't game engines, they're not rendering at a constant rate heat: Sorry, I did not understand, are they not gonna render the elements at a constant rate?
<heat> no
<Shaddox404> Because all the demos and the dev beta shows that the refractions and glows are in realtime
<heat> they would fucking destroy your battery
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<pog> but the change of those refractions and glows isn't necessarily continuous nor does it apply to the whole surface being painted
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<heat> generally they work by calculating "damage rectangles"
<heat> so basically parts of the screen that need to be redrawn
<heat> and then do so
<pog> yes
<zid> ehhh
<zid> everything is gpu composited these days
<zid> so you don't really even need to 'do' anything
<Shaddox404> Oh, so they partially redraw only when necessary and do not "recalculate" the light props at each frame
<heat> yes
<heat> i mean, there is no "each frame"
<zid> everything is render-to-texture and cached regardless
<heat> as is if you're sitting on your chrome app looking at google.com, the screen will only be refreshed once a minute, when the clock updates
<pog> they're gonna bring back glassy aero-style everything aren't they
<pog> plasma is gonna have keramik again
<heat> that would be cool
<Shaddox404> Yes, I would love a modernized Aero UI pls
<Shaddox404> I am tired to flat design a lot
<Shaddox404> *of
<the_oz> I'm tirted of guis being obtrusive
<pog> bring back keramik and crystal icons
<Shaddox404> Oxygen theme that is iirc
<Shaddox404> KDE oxygen theme
<pog> but yeh i'm not really keen on the composited translucent everything gui these days
<pog> it was a novelty and it's worn off on me
<zid> fuck flat and fuck aero
<zid> give me w98
<pog> yes
<pog> perfect right angles and no frills
<pog> retvrn
<the_oz> ui devs with too much paycheck redesigning everything once again!
<the_oz> who'd a figured!
<zid> but does have depth cues
<heat> i like both flat and glassy
<zid> more like gyatt and assy
<nikolar> i don't like the bloody blur
<nikolar> get that away from my ui elemenst
<Shaddox404> Nah, Vista Aero was the peak of UI design. And windows 8 they went a step back with metro
<Shaddox404> however, if they had done glassy metro, we'd all have skipped the flat UI arc completely
<the_oz> guy with glasses gets an idea
<the_oz> WHAT IF
<heat> vista aero was definitely not the peak of UI design
<the_oz> EVERYONE HAD TO LOOK THROUGH GLASSES
<zid> That's an incredible take
<Shaddox404> For me it was. It was better than Luna XP theme, and looking at the Longhorn builds, it was going to be very nice with the Longhorn UI layout
<heat> windows 98 was terrible, xp was ok but the blue was just fucking ugly
<heat> vista was ok but definitely not "peak"
<zid> MMC is *ideal*
<Shaddox404> So what would have been the *peak*?
<Shaddox404> zid: what is MMC?
<heat> various iterations of macOS
<Shaddox404> oh
<zid> nt
<heat> i like windows 10 but it's inconsistent internally
<Shaddox404> I never had seen the old macs, so no idea, sorry
<the_oz> I've nefer gone woah man this ui is great
<heat> i also like windows 11 (shocker), maybe even more, but even less consistent
<the_oz> I'd pick like the mouse
<the_oz> the touchscreen
<heat> what old macs?
<heat> i mean the new macs
<heat> apple nails UX pretty darn well
<heat> consistent and careful
<heat> and usually looks darn good
<heat> and i'm talking as someone that does not use apple shit at all
<the_oz> kek
<Shaddox404> Tbh, when you think about it, modernized Win98 would look good
<zid> modernized 98 exists, it's called nt4 / mmc
<the_oz> dude no
<heat> no, it would look awful
<heat> anything retro looks like ass
<zid> fluent has invisible scroll bars: unusable, ribbon is fuck ugly and also unusable, aero makes everything semitransparent which is also ugly
<heat> you think it looks good because it's old and retro
<zid> I want it to *work*
<heat> and operating systems are made like they used to be
<heat> aren't*
<zid> which none of ribbon or fluent etc DO
<nortti> heat: what would you consider retro in this context? I presume windows vista does not count, given your prior comments
<zid> I am not infact, a telephone
<heat> vista is not retro
<heat> but xp and older are, in some definition
<heat> maybe in a few years we'll have people longing for the good ol vista days
<heat> now THAT was an operating system
<nortti> already seen that among some younger ppl
<the_oz> I li8ke 7 but that isn'jt because it was good it was just least uncomfortable
<Shaddox404> https://x.com/zeealeid/status/1244339226839310337 -> I was talking about this
<zid> you know what'd make it better? depth cues and visible scroll bars.
<the_oz> EASE IN
<zid> oh wait that's mmc again
<heat> what? that's not windows 98
<the_oz> muh star wipe
<nortti> personally I think my favourite windows UI is probably windows 8.1 (desktop mode)
<heat> it says on the system properties "arm64"
<zid> no shit?
<zid> heat can you rad
<zid> rade
<zid> re-ad
<heat> read what bit?
<zid> idk, which bit did you read that said that was windows 98?
<nortti> tones down on the glass/protrusion of win7, while still having a nice amount of transpacery and depth
<heat> > Windows 98 with #fluentdesign
<zid> yes
<heat> and on the system properties
<heat> > windows 98 X
<the_oz> zid - @zeealeid
<the_oz> Windows 98 with #fluentdesign
<zid> redesigned windows 98, but with 'fluent' ui
<zid> from w10
<heat> meanwhile it's a weird modified windows 11
<zid> as an art piece thinger
<kof673> really i just need one of 1) tmux/screen/whatever 2) tabbed terminal emulator 3) tabbed window manager. next scroll bars + tear off menus are a plus
<heat> nortti: 8.1 was decent yeah, but i would prefer 10
<zid> never used 8.1
<heat> or 11, i really like how 11 looks
<kof673> i always want to mess around with pie menus some day thuogh
<zid> but I assume i'd hate it
<heat> still flat but round-er
<zid> I don't really give a shit what it 'looks' like
<kof673> pie menu icons maybe
<zid> I care whether I have drag handles and shit
<nortti> heat: personally not that big fan of the roundedness, but I do have to give it to them for having actually improved tablet UX over win10, as a surface pro (2017) owner
<nortti> was a bit sceptical given how they were getting rid of the remnants of whole metro / windows phone thing, but stuff like explorer are actually usable without the type cover now nicely
<zid> you used to be able to get the 3.1 file picker, idk if it's still there
<zid> ah yea still can
<zid> from my actual running w10
<zid> who needs Ex
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<bslsk05> ​compilers.iecc.com: Comp.compilers: Re: Summary of setjmp/longjmp responses
<bslsk05> ​developer.arm.com: Documentation – Arm Developer
<bslsk05> ​github.com: lk/arch/x86/fpu.c at master · littlekernel/lk · GitHub
<bslsk05> ​imgflip.com: Distracted Boyfriend Meme - Imgflip
<bslsk05> ​inbox.sourceware.org: Re: [musl] Re: BUG: realloc(p,0) should be consistent with malloc(0) - Alejandro Colomar
<bslsk05> ​'Rhapsody OS: Installing Apple’s Lost x86 OS from 1998 on a 3.4 Ghz i7 CPU & SSD' by Omores
<bslsk05> ​virtuallyfun.com: Rebuilding Darwin from source: Part 3 Debian makes the world go ’round | Virtually Fun
<bslsk05> ​turbolent/w2c2 - Translates WebAssembly modules to portable C (44 forks/765 stargazers/MIT)
<bslsk05> ​'Turning Portal 2 into a Web Server' by PortalRunner
<bslsk05> ​eylenburg.github.io: Operating Systems: Timeline and Family Tree
<bslsk05> ​programminggroundup.blogspot.com: Programming from the Ground Up: Programming from the Ground Up
<bslsk05> ​www.homebrewcpu.com: Overview
<bslsk05> ​www.megaprocessor.com: Megaprocessor
<bslsk05> ​obsolescence.wixsite.com: PiDP-11 | obsolescence
<bslsk05> ​hackaday.com: A Modern Take On The “Paperclip Computer” | Hackaday
<bslsk05> ​nandgame.com: NandGame - Build a computer from scratch.
<bslsk05> ​hackaday.com: It’s A 486 Computer, On A Breadboard | Hackaday
<bslsk05> ​www.chrisfenton.com: Homebrew Cray-1A – chrisfenton.com
<puck> wooooops.
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<kof673> basilisk coughs up what he swallowed :D
<puck> yeah, the way bslsk05 failed was kinda unexpected
<heat> bslsk05: heyyyyyy buuuuuudy
<heat> you alright buddy?
<pog> spam spam spam spam
<heat> pog nazel
<heat> nazinga
<pog> msbuild
<heat> oh shit i didn't intend that
<heat> msbuild yes haha
<heat> buck
<heat> are you a buck gal or a buck2 gal
<pog> buck2
<heat> that's a good choice
<heat> because it's written inRUUUUUUUUUUUUUST
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<bslsk05> ​www.pantsbuild.org: Pantsbuild
<heat> PANTS
<geist> JAAAAM
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<sbalmos> It's summer, it's too hot for PANTS. I demand a faster build system - SHORTS
<sbalmos> And what is UNDER PANTS? :P
<heat> maybe SKIRT would be a good fork
<GeDaMo> NUDIST
<heat> JUMPSUIT for a full product suite
<sbalmos> so I use PANTS to build... do I use SOCKS for configuration management, and SHOES for deployment?
<the_oz> CAR and ENGINE
<GeDaMo> NUDIST could be read as New Distribution :P
<sbalmos> sounds like a great subcommand to init a new project
<geist> HOT PANTS
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<the_oz> ALL CAPS
<heat> LINUX KERNEL
<heat> WOOOOOO
<the_oz> of course lol
<heat> WE DON'T STAN OTHER UNIX KERNELS HERE
<sbalmos> SO BSD REALLY IS DEAD?
<heat> ALWAYS HAS BEEN
<the_oz> the best ideas born
<GeDaMo> SKIN Source Kernel ImplementatioN
<pog> does SKIRT go SPINNY
<heat> it DEPENDS
<pog> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<heat> it could be a TIGHT SKIRT
<heat> in that case IT AINT SPINNIN
<sbalmos> SILK - Secure In-Line Kernel
<heat> LK - Linux Kernel
<sbalmos> them's fightin' letters
* geist goes into a blind rage and sweeps everything off the table
<heat> geist how does it feel to be linus torvalds
<geist> we have both relocated to the PNW
<heat> oregon too
<geist> where us kernel intellectuals live
<heat> in the middle of nowhere
<geist> we go outside and stare at the trees and listen to the birds
<heat> real kernel intellectuals live in YUROP
<the_oz> yellowstone or the big one
<the_oz> nothx
<geist> and then retire to our cabin and pen the best kernels
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<GeDaMo> You all live in the same cabin? :|
<heat> hot.
<heat> or cold! probably cold
<the_oz> penning fanfiction
<the_oz> kernel goes POP
<the_oz> with hot oil
<sbalmos> my kernels all keep burning and smoking
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<the_oz> too hot to handle!!!
<kof673> wash with kernel fire, burn with kernel water > Everybody knows how to boil water in fire; but if they knew how to boil fire in water their physic would reach beyond the kitchen.
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<geist> well you can go outside, check your traps in the woods for wildlife, and take the screaming cute furry animals and feed it into the KERNEL ANGST ENGINE
<geist> that will generate the hate to fuel your mailing list interactions
<geist> it is the way
<sbalmos> well that's a problem since either you have to skin the cute furry animal before feeding it to the kernel, or eventually the kernel will puke back up a pellet. Is that the kernel's natural core dump?
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<geist> hmmm good point!
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<sbalmos> randomly cleaning out /old/ files on the computer here, coming across work chat logs and code archives from 15+ years ago
<zid> It was too hot so I fell asleep
<zid> Guess 10pm is now my normal waking up time
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