klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<kof673> i mean, if a little 3M msys base installer suffices, that is not bad IMO
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<kof673> one file, installer doesn't have to download anything, etc. simple
<kof673> and if someone is insane enough to use older than win98, djgpp shell + unix utils i think will work lol
<klys> i forget did ntfs + msys2 do symlinks
<klys> and i wonder if you can do that simply with an efi shell these days
<klys> yea msys2 did native ntfs symlinks
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<klys> ye I was thinking about that earlier and picked up a copy of reactos, which is very unstable and can't run 32-bit cygwin let alone msys, and uses vfat. so there's not currently a way visible to get symlinks from a simple & free dll system.
<klys> seems the only way to install reactos without a freeze is to accept all the defaults, just saying.
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<sortie> Oh that's a shame to hear ReactOS is that unstable. It's been around for a while, so would've thought it was better by now :)
<mjg> i'm confused by reactos tho
<mjg> suppose you were really into it when it started
<heat> i prefer TikTokOS, it has a novel RPC method
<mjg> by *now*, even fi it was stable, it lost any practical usage
<mjg> heat: you misspelled NOVEL
<heat> NOVELL?
<mjg> no you suslut
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<heat> maybe the real novel rpc method was the friends we made along the way
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<mjg> no, it's how we message them
<mjg> the real friends is people we flamed on LKML
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<Ermine> reactos people are still busy figuring out how does windows work
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<the_oz> shoulda used proactos
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<kof673> i haven't used reactos much, i was just playing with https://github.com/MyTDT-Mysoft/emsdk32/ which needs something modern, my old wine did not work, and decided i would also revisit older windows too lol
<bslsk05> ​MyTDT-Mysoft/emsdk32 - Emscripten Toolchain Portable for windows 7+ (0 forks/3 stargazers)
<kof673> so the old msys, i just wanted a bourne shell so i can add that emscript target lol
<kof673> https://github.com/CUB3D/wasm89 i don't know how good that is, but there may be a point besides just adding targets :D
<bslsk05> ​CUB3D/wasm89 - C89 WASM, escape vendor toolchains (0 forks/0 stargazers)
<kof673> if i don't want to mandate elf or whatnot, maybe i can standardize on wasm lol
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<kof673> if you don't mandate memory protection, then i think you want userland, maybe even kernel, running inside some type of vm, managed env., scripting language...some type of protection, whatever it may be
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<heat> 🍿 test
<heat> ok cool
<zid> is that.. popcorn?
<heat> yes
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<zid> I had to re-paste it, it's black and white only in this client, so it looked more like a house, or a bucket with a pointy handle
<zid> nikolar is refusing to work on my usb code with me heat, after I got back in the mood after previously failing :(
<zid> I'm going to need you to do it instead I guess
<zid> I can promote you to friend from someone-off-irc if you do well
<heat> you can do emojis with :<stuff>: on irccloud, i suspected it translated it correctly into unicode but wanted to make sure
<heat> > usb
<heat> sorry sir i'm not available
<heat> have you tried vibecoding?
<zid> vibecoding worked flawlessly
<zid> it works great in qemu
<nikolar> 🍿
<zid> sadly qemu is the most lazy liberal thing ever
<nikolar> i can do that too
<heat> LIBERAL
<zid> you can just give it utter nonsense and it's like "ah, this byte is a 7, I get what he means"
<heat> what's the republican emulator? vmware?
<zid> sorry, triggered heat, PERMISSIVE
<GeDaMo> I'd rather the emojis were translated to :stuff: so it was more obvious what is meant to be :|
<nikolar> lol
<zid> I can't run vmware :(
<nikolar> zid: why not
<zid> microsoft bricked amd virt in w10
<zid> then never fixed it before w11 released
<zid> so early w10 works, and w11 works, but not up to date w10
<heat> weird
<nikolar> loller
<heat> i know there was fucky wucky with hyperv and other hypervisors like virtualbox
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<nikolar> w10 is outdated anyway
<zid> amd and intel virt work differently, one lands you in pmode and one in real I think
<nikolar> everyone is running w11 nowadays obviously
<zid> I forget which is which
<heat> i run windows 11 AMA
<vdamewood> I'm not running Windows 11... at the moment.
<zid> I'd be running xp64 if they let me
<zid> but apparently it's "end of life"
<nikolar> no one's stopping you zid
<zid> I begrudgingly went to w7
<nikolar> just install it and have fun
<zid> and then they did the same damn thing
<heat> i'd be running windows 12 if they'd let me
<zid> I can't just install it, nikolar
<zid> none of my hardware will work
<zid> notably, my keyboard
<zid> fun fact, xp has better usb perf than vista+ does
<heat> it's going to be great when microsoft eventually skips 13 and 14
<zid> because they changed from using multiple queues to a single queue so they get better irq latency
<zid> which means it gets less i/o throughput cus of the single queue
<heat> lol terrible
<zid> it's fine for bulk transfers
<zid> but if you have 2-3 devices all talking, they have to round-robin with a trip back to software, rather than the controller being able to switch queues internally
<zid> because there's only one
<heat> multiqueue (at least with DECENT hardware) gets you big speed wins
<heat> even in block IO
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<zid> it won't for ehci for bulk
<heat> yeah but ehci is already shit
<zid> because you're just writing how much data you want into the queue, and it can deliver many many packets of data through that single queue
<heat> i don't know what the expected usb 3.0 throughput for a proper usb 3.0 flashdrive is
<zid> like, I can fire and forget gigabytes of transfers off a single queue
<heat> but it's hopefully better than the 2.0
<zid> heat: 8MB/s
<heat> for 3.0?
<zid> if every flash drive I've ever seen is anything to go by
<heat> yikes
<zid> they didn't make the flash any better, it's still just an SD card level piece of trash :p
<zid> You can get 'ssd' flash drives now though
<zid> using good flash
<heat> i would expect anything decent to be using usb-attached SCSI
<zid> all usb mass storage is scsi
<heat> yeah but there's a separate thing, I think
<heat> this
<zid> ah so it's inbetween
<zid> scsi and usb
<zid> an extra layer for *scsi* command queues
<zid> for iops
<nikolar> huh didn't know about that
<nikolar> IT'S ALL SCSI
<zid> I can see why iops would suck currently at least
<zid> you have to process all the scsi commands serially with bulk transport
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<zid> and you need to eat a trip to software to process and fire off the next command
<heat> nvme isn't scsi
<nikolar> oh yea
<nortti> neither is sata, unless you do atapi, afaiu
<heat> linux SATA is scsi
<heat> /dev/sda is a "scsi" device which uses https://www.t10.org/drafts.htm#SAT to translate SCSI commands into ATA native commands
<bslsk05> ​www.t10.org: T10 Working Drafts
<zid> I'm still full scsi I think?
<zid> don't think my ssd is nvme
<zid> I didn't buy this PC so I keep forgetting what's in it
<nortti> does the old native ATA /dev/hda code still exist in the kernel? I remember it sticking around for a long while after the switch to libata, but have not checked recently
<zid> ata_piix for life
<heat> i think they deleted it
<zid> *ICH2spec c #9- Extra operations needed to handle
<zid> * drive hotswap [NOT YET SUPPORTED]
<heat> semi-recently, maybe 2 years ago
<zid> fuck, need to submit patches for ata_piix
<nikolar> IT'S ALL SCSI
<zid> Your face is SCSI actually
<zid> MODE SENSE
<zid> "sad"
<zid> REQUEST FEATURE
<zid> "ugly"
<nikolar> :(
<zid> ^ see, worked
<zid> nikolar: Dog when you ask it to fetch: PREVENT MEDIA REMOVAL
<zid> me: drop it!
<zid> dog: NO DROP, ONLY PREVENT MEDIA REMOVAL
<nikolar> lol
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<kof673> heat heat heat :/ > what's the republican emulator? vmware? several sovereign emulators
<kof673> there can only be one^H^H^H several lol
<the_oz> sas
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<zid> heat: You like nvme, does write zeros command act as a trim or do you NEED to set AD?
<heat> a quick reading of the spec would hint that write zeros + CDW12.DEAC might work as a trim
<zid> it does
<zid> that's how you TRIM
<zid> I'm asking if it's still a trim *without* DEAC
<zid> SCSI just uses WRITE SAME for TRIM
<zid> ATA is the one with the actual 'TRIM' command
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<heat> i guess not, given that it literally tells you to use DEAC to deallocate stuff
<zid> I bet what it tells you and what irl controllers do only bare a passing resemblence though
<zid> resemblance
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<zid> fucking english
<the_oz> joost spoot vawls vie woll gat oot
<gog> is that dutch
<gog> gat uit
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<the_oz> noot dootch
<Ermine> evil microsoft doesn't allow me to run w11
<Ermine> Also their enterprise image dpesn't have wifi drivers built in
<the_oz> I had to disable a bunfh of crap like TPM
<the_oz> I could upgrade to w11 but now the up[dater refuses to upgrade
<Ermine> i'm not going for fucky unsupported configuration
<the_oz> so never trust these assholes
<Ermine> but... it all boils down to getting a new computer
<the_oz> I have more resources running than they CAN support
<the_oz> they just want TPM and control
<heat> why would you want an enterprise image
<the_oz> new computer is a downgrade
<zid> gog: My gingerbread is packed full of lovely gender fluid
<the_oz> ew
<gog> slurrp
<zid> (They're gingerbread 'people')
<the_oz> not the gumdrop buttons
<the_oz> haawwkkTUAH eat me!
<zid> god forbid I want to bite the heads off a bunch of men
<the_oz> Specifically God does forbid it just FYI
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<kof673> i don't always agree with mysoft, but he has a sense of humor (from emscripten blurb): "~1200 files of python garbage being incinerated starts in 3....2....1.... C!"
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