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<n00by>
i had fucked up my circadium rhythms too, now i'm midway into fixing them. guess, working near a window during day times kinda does the trick :P
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<Ermine>
w98 was peak
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<bslsk05>
github.com: nabijaczleweli.github.io/src/blogn_t/017-malloc0.html.pp at dev · nabijaczleweli/nabijaczleweli.github.io · GitHub
<nikolar>
without any symbols
<nikolar>
heat: what am i looking at
<n00by>
ah o_O
<heat>
nikolar: a web page partially written using the C preprocessor
<nikolar>
nice
<n00by>
fucking wild
<n00by>
woah
<n00by>
if you run cpp on it, do you get html.i
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<n00by>
but tbh i wouldnt do it like that though, i'd just use something like m4
<\Test_User>
n00by: you're going to need to know the string names for dynamic linking, since you don't know the symbol table layout for some library during compiletime/whatever
<nikolar>
i don't think aout did dynamic linking lol
<\Test_User>
ah
<n00by>
(i don't think that's the case)
<heat>
nikolar: "David Anderson's What is PID 0? (on mastussy) analyses the popular misconceptions (or, indeed, one guy's wikipedia edit) of if, and what, PID 0 is, but stops its retrospective at Version 4 unix because it's the first one written in C. This, in many ways, is like stopping a retrospective on the Great War when the British joined because they talk weird in Sarajevo"
<nikolar>
lol
<nikolar>
nice analogy
<n00by>
dont laugh OK, netbsd still supports a.out
<n00by>
i can hear heat giggling so hard
<n00by>
alright ik it's simple, but hey normies like me can appreciate this stuff, it's within our reach :(
<nikolar>
i was laughing at heat's message mate
<Ermine>
you can hear heat, mjg and me giggling every time bsd is mentioned, for whatever reason
<bslsk05>
github.com: netbsd/include/link_aout.h at db4f849365101385d6667256568616131bac8ee7 · Stichting-MINIX-Research-Foundation/netbsd · GitHub
<\Test_User>
n00by: well the hashtable part of that should be unnecessary at least, just there for speedup (also doesn't really need to be stored in the file; could be generated by the linker when loading the file, and probably better that way too, but idk which way aout made it)
<Ermine>
n00by: if you use minix code to refer to its netbsd part, keep in mind it's outdated
<n00by>
ah
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<n00by>
\Test_User: right, it's handled exactly like you said
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<kof673>
n00by, pro just means gets paid. paid just means shuffles debt around lol lawyers are their own time of root of all evil
<kof673>
*type
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<n00by>
true, hey kof673 i got a dumb ques, if i write an assembly program do i still need libgcc and crt stuff during dynamic linking to setup my a.out binary? can't i just point to my _start label since there's no C "main" function?
<kof673>
there are guides to making tiny programs in asm
<kof673>
but this is all system-specific "libgcc" "c run-time" etc.
<n00by>
ye
<kof673>
i think where _start() is used it generally calls main() yes...so there is no reason it has to do that per se
<kof673>
depending on target, libgcc might have arithmetic functions esp. may be needed for division. so you might need that anyways if you were using gcc....asm that you write would not have that issue then, unless you called those arithmetic functions
<kof673>
but as for a random libc function...who knows if it need those :D
<kof673>
there is "stuff you write in asm" and "stuff your asm calls, that you didn't write" is what i mean
<n00by>
on netbsd, i also have crt0 stuff in csu/ but i'm not sure if gcc's crt0's stuff gets linked by ld.so internally. still in the n00b land, lots of dumb questions like this keep popping up
<n00by>
kof673: right
<n00by>
in a freestanding environment if i don't invoke ld with -lgcc it wouldnt do so i guess
<n00by>
but i'd have to provide the initialization routines myself
<n00by>
that'd be a big PITA
<n00by>
how would you do that
<kof673>
gcc -v should show the exact commands it runs
<kof673>
i am not denying poking around to learn stuff, but what is it you are wanting to do? make a compiler? make a linker? make something to work with a.out? i mean...for your own stuff, it is all on you :D
<n00by>
lol
<n00by>
yeah it's on me
<n00by>
and i got it
<n00by>
fuck yeah
<kof673>
i mean it is not bad to learn how a real system works, but you are not necessarily limited by that for your own stuff
<kof673>
you can have interpreted C if you want lol
<n00by>
right, thanks :3
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<kof673>
"freestanding" ...you just need to provide things you use :D if you don't use printf() then it doesn't need it, nor FILE * streams, /etc. lol you may want to keep that separate from userland libc anyways for "kernel versions/pseudo-equivalents" etc.
<kof673>
i mean, it is up to you what your kernel provides for C code to use
<kof673>
in userland, it is somehow setting up stdin/stdout/stderr perhaps...
<n00by>
ye
<kof673>
same with malloc() does the c runtime initialize it? if you don't use it, or provide your own, may not need to initialize anything :D
<n00by>
correct
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<kof673>
not saying it is good, and i am just messing around with userland 99% of the time ...but i just have like "template" .h and .c files i include from main() and after the main function, just include some .c files for "runtime stuff". i mean, i just compile as part of whatever main() program a bunch of misc. functions that i have not put into a library yet. a non-lTO linker this is perhaps wasteful, might include stuff never call
<kof673>
ed, but is easier for now IMO
<kof673>
i mean, if you write stuff yourself, and one function per .c file generally, you can just #include .c files of the parts you use only lol
<kof673>
for crappy compilers, this might even help optimization lol
<kof673>
it means compiling programs takes longer though, since it compiles all these "helper/run-time functions" afresh with every binary
<kof673>
if you write your own libc, you could basically do that too lol
<kof673>
another way to say that, is if you have source to things, you can just include the source directly with your program, instead of linking against things lol
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<kof673>
i support this for libraries i write as well, there is a fooall.c so it could also be included from whatever program and compiled alongside with it
<kof673>
if you have the source, why bother with linking j/k
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<kof673>
*why bother linking against a separate library object/archive/etc. just include the source "inline" lol
<kof673>
i'm not trying to be static binaries only either, just ...you just have to provide needed functions one way or another, that is one method :D
<n00by>
tysm, ill see what i can accomplish and bother y'all if needed :P
<n00by>
(basically i just want a minimal kernel, a simple runtime for my little assembly programs and a simple linker, least memory footprint is ideal)
<kof673>
i want all programs to support -V to output version information, and a djgpp-style "response file" @foo or similar, if command-line length is limited, read arguments from a file, those are not really initialization, but happens before parsing program-specific arguments, so i just include little "fragments" of code from within main() early on before the real program code starts lol
<kof673>
i mean even in userland only, hosted on some other kernel...i have some idea of what "every" program should provide, standardized command-line arguments here
<kof673>
so i have a little base set of "run-time functions" for stuff like that, after main() is called though
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<n00by>
ah
<n00by>
nice
<nikolar>
all functions are run time lol (in c at least9
<heat>
what do you mean
<n00by>
is dlopen() run-time?
<GeDaMo>
Yes
<kof673>
i should have just said "my run-time" on top of whatever libc run-time, wherever that libc may come from, or freestanding even lol
<nikolar>
ok i read run time as in "run time vs compile time" and runtime as in c runtime
<n00by>
yeah the latter
<n00by>
kof673: tbh i want to see a program that is compiled with -nostartfiles, for starters
<zid>
smh useless C
<zid>
only has code that runs at runtime
<zid>
and compiles at compile time
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<GeDaMo>
Unlike Forth which can run code at compile-time, compile code at run-time and everything in between :P
<n00by>
woah
<zid>
Forth enjoyer detected
<n00by>
heh
<zid>
GeDaMo: There'll be a knock at your door soon, a nice man will have shown up who has a very special hug jacket for you to wear
<GeDaMo>
Too warm for that :P
<zid>
above freezing today in scotland I bet
<zid>
was 28.6C here earlier :(
<zid>
oh whoa, 27C in edin, why's it so hot
<GeDaMo>
It's rained most of June but it was warm and humid today
<zid>
'bit of' rain on a hot day suucks
<zid>
because it just immediately evaporates into humidity and doesn't make it any colder
<GeDaMo>
Longest day tomorrow
<zid>
are you going to explain forth to us
<GeDaMo>
Pfft! Certainly not :P
<zid>
so the longest *possible* day is still up for grabs then
<zid>
edin tomorrow: Sunrise 4:26, sunset: 22:02
<zid>
with 2 hours of civil twilight and 4 hours of nauctical twilight
<heat>
asking the waiter for her phone number and then texting her "nikolar: so how about that SLES license?"
<mjg>
stop shilling the license
<mjg>
buy RHEL instead
<heat>
can't spell HATREDL without RHEL
<zid>
yea no
<zid>
no yea but, sles?
<heat>
are you an oracle linux guy?
<heat>
it's okay if you're an oracle linux guy
<heat>
i know a lot of oracle guys
<mjg>
ye i do the unbreakable kernel
<kof673>
everything gets virtualized :/ phenomena-st-elmos-fire-explained This voltage, about 30,000 volts per centimetre, tears apart air molecules, causing the gas to glow Composed of plasma, and fed by natural forces
<nikolar>
oh i forgot that you're in the wrong time zone too heat
<zid>
heat is in a silly timezone
<zid>
aka the same as me
<nikolar>
indeed
<zid>
I'm behind GMT by 12 minutes, physically, heat is 9 degrees away
<aether123>
I'm trying to join the osdev wiki forums, but it's saying I've exceeded the maximum amount of attempts for this session. I've tried reloading the page but it says the same thing, do I just have to wait an hour or two until it refreshes?
<zid>
presumably
<zid>
did you guess their silly captcha question wrong?
<aether123>
No, I kept trying to sign up to libera.chat but it wasn't working but now I finally got it working
<aether123>
lol
<zid>
what
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<aether123>
yeah, I actually had no idea what libera.chat was until I tried to sign up xD
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<zid>
If anyone figures out what the fuck he was smoking, lmk
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<aether123>
How do you do the captcha on sign-up for the osdev forums?
<aether123>
the confirmation of registration one?
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<zid>
nikolar: oh, my PC turned itself off at random yesterday and I forgot to run sshd since, rip, can you rerun?
<nikolar>
sure
<nikolar>
there, runnin
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<zid>
ta babe
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