jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<fosskers> I did a review of the relationships between the various char and string types: https://imgur.com/pNmcjcT Please let me know if I've missed anything.
<beach> SIMPLE-VECTOR is not correct, I think.
<beach> Also, a simple array can very well be adjustable.
<beach> fosskers: The standard says that a vector that is not adjustable, etc. is a simple vector, but it doesn't say that a simple vector is not adjustable etc.
<beach> And a simple vector is not specialized, i.e., the element type is T.
<beach> So a simple-string is not a subtype of simple-vector.
<fosskers> `simple-array` being adjustable does not match my understanding, but I'm also confused by the spec with its differentiating "expressly adjustable" and "actually adjustable".
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<beach> You need to adjust your understanding. Like I said, the implication arrow goes in one direction but not the other.
<fosskers> You do seem to be right about `simple-vector`, I'll remove it
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<fosskers> With regards to adjustability, if I create a string literal, it will self-report its type as `simple-array`. If I attempt `vector-push-extend` on it, it will fail.
<beach> "expressly adjustable" is in the glossary.
<beach> It means that :ADJUSTABLE <true> was given at creation.
<beach> But since an array may be adjustable without this option being supplied, it can be actually adjustable.
<fosskers> Very well; but attempt to adjust did fail in practice.
<beach> "actually adjustable" is also in the glossary.
<beach> fosskers: Are you talking Common Lisp or a particular implementation?
<fosskers> My quick tests were done on ECL.
<fosskers> Happy to test others if it will help the discussion.
<beach> No, I mean, is your diagram meant to represent Common Lisp or a particular implementation. If the former, you can't determine adjustability by a test.
<fosskers> The attempt is to capture reality as implemented across the major compilers in the current year.
<fosskers> Hence the detail w.r.t. characters on the left side of the graph.
<beach> I see. Maybe you should make that clear. I was under the impression that you were talking about the language Common Lisp.
<fosskers> Thanks for the feedback.
<beach> Pleasure.
<mesaoptimizer> "<aeth> everyone knows that Common Lisp doesn't care about encryption libraries" what about ironclad?
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<uhuh> Would it be possible to create a commutative generic function using the MOP? eg. a generic function f where (f integer float) and (f float integer) dispatch to the same code
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<beach> uhuh: Sure. You can use whatever technique you like to compute a discriminating function. It might not be simple though.
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<uhuh> Thank you, that's good to know.
<beach> Sure. Good luck!
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<jackdaniel> uhuh: see my pist on proxy gfs
<jackdaniel> post
<ixelp> TurtleWare
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<uhuh> Oh, interesting. Reading now.
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<dlowe> it's not just the encryption, it's encryption and protocol handling in a way resistant to timing other OOB attacks
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<dlowe> it's the kind of extremely hard gritty work that comes mostly as a result of funding the right people for a long time
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<attila_lendvai> phantomics, FYI, LLVM's TableGen is a PITA... i i'm exploring some alternatives. if interested see these: https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6898b659a3708191900152775efd61c7 https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6898b637d5bc819190e0800c57366d9a
<ixelp> Parse TableGen in Lisp
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, i'd welcome any insights which one to start with
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<phantomics> That sleigh one looks the most usable but IMO none are as good as Lisp macros for the purpose
<phantomics> I've been writing tools to convert instruction specs into the different formats used in SpecOps, for example I translated the SuperH instructions from this webpage: https://www.shared-ptr.com/sh_insns.html
<ixelp> Renesas SH Instruction Set Summary
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, but i want to *generate* my lisp code, not write it... my primary goal is to keep it as simple/small as possible (maru is 2-3 kLOC alltogether) while generating a good enough assembler that is usable for a toy compiler
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<attila_lendvai> the entire point of maru is to demonstrate how little code is necessary to self-host a lisp compiler/language
<phantomics> I generated Lisp code from that page, also did System Z by converting from a PDF doc, and 6502/Z80 from other HTML pages
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<phantomics> So converting x86 specs at compile time would be a better fulfillment of your objective than generating Lisp files for the assembler that would be compiled into maru?
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, aren't those two the same? i want some small code that generates (most of) the assembler
<attila_lendvai> BTW, there's already something like that in maru, but the declarative syntax is stupid #defines from some old assembler. e.g. it's 32 bits only...
<phantomics> They're largely the same, to me it'd be better to convert the ASM spec once and have it be a part of maru's code, that way you don't need to package an XML reader or custom parser or something along with maru
<attila_lendvai> it defines a PEG grammar at the head of the file, and then the #define's are copy-pasted: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru/blob/maru.10/source/assembler/gen-asm-x86.l
<ixelp> maru/source/assembler/gen-asm-x86.l at maru.10 · attila-lendvai/maru
<phantomics> They're copypasted into a C program?
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, it's copy-pasted *from* a C program
<attila_lendvai> maru has a (bootstrapped) PEG parser integrated, so that you can define new parser rules inline
<attila_lendvai> the rest of the file is parsed with the new rules
<phantomics> Ok, so the idea is to parse those #defines using the PEG rules and generate an assembler from them?
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, yeah. that already works, but that's 32 bit only
<attila_lendvai> i'm looking for something that has a more complete description of x86
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<phantomics> Gotcha, what was the source? An older assembler?
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, see the comments at the top
<attila_lendvai> phantomics, i'm not exactly sure, but i recorded my investigation into the comments
<phantomics> From a NeXT emulator, neat
* attila_lendvai is leaning towards phantomics' recommendation (Sleigh, because Sail seems to be overkill)
<phantomics> Adding 64-bit support will be quite complicated, especially including all the extensions like SSE, AVX etc. It may not be practical with that format
<attila_lendvai> yeah, i gave up on that #define stuff...
<phantomics> You'll have the REX, VEX and AVEX prefixes to contend with, the differing behaviors of width bytes, and more
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<phantomics> I've been looking at this site: http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64.html
<ixelp> coder64 edition | X86 Opcode and Instruction Reference 1.12
<phantomics> Has HTML-based instruction info, may be convertable
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<jackdaniel> fosskers: the specification allows for a lisp to represent only a subset of characters covered by ascii (and encoding doesn't need to be ascii at all)
<jackdaniel> there is a page in the standard that lists all standard characters
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<bike> jackdaniel: the proxy GF thing is pretty cool! and one of not many cases i've seen of make-method-lambda being used in anger
<jackdaniel> bike: thanks! :)
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