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<kchanqvq>
stylewarning: I wonder if Coalton could be another project that would benefit from NOTE-SOURCE-TRANSFORMATION. Does Coalton currently allow CL debugger to jump to the precise Coalton form that produces a runtime error? or maybe this is irrelevant because Coalton isn't supposed to produce runtime error?
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<beach>
There are things that can't be expressed in a static type system, like you can't express a type such as "any integer except 0". Therefore there will at least be errors like division by 0 to handle.
<kchanqvq>
beach: I see! Do you know whether Coalton currently allow debugger source tracking to jump to precise error producing form?
<beach>
I am afraid I don't. Sorry. This was just a general computer-science observation.
* kchanqvq
nods
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<beach>
I am not sure I understand the issue, though. As I understand it, Coalton is "just" a Common Lisp macro, so the Common Lisp implementation should be able to figure out the source form that signaled an error, no?
<beach>
... unless, of course, source information is not propagated through macro expansion.
<kchanqvq>
beach: say a macro form A expands to B, CL impl will know that A->B, but currently there's no way for a macro to tell the impl it transformed a subform C in A into D in B. This particularly affects code walking macros like ITERATE
<kchanqvq>
Clozure CL does have NOTE-SOURCE-TRANSFORMATION which allows macro to express precisely this information. I wrote a patch for SBCL to add this as well but it has not been accepted yet.
<beach>
I see. The way we plan to handle it in SICL is to propagate source information (which could be a bit imprecise) through macro expansion and report errors in terms of the source that was typed by the user.
<beach>
What you are describing sounds more complicated to me. I may be wrong, of course.
<kchanqvq>
beach: I think it would also benefit from this API, because some macro might want to do arbitrary computation and output something unrecognizable, and only god and the macro itself knows what's the correct mapping from subforms in input form and subforms in expanded form
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<beach>
Sure, but in most cases, there are sub-forms in the expansion that also occur in the macro form.
<beach>
So what you are referring to would be something that the macro writer would use?
<kchanqvq>
beach: Yes. And I have an ITERATE version which uses it and has perfect debugger source tracking
<beach>
I see. Interesting!
<kchanqvq>
while without this interface source tracking either completely don't work, or work for simple function calls (where ITERATE copies verbatim) but breaks for more complicated cases.
<beach>
I understand.
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<aeth>
You can express nonzero as a static type... But I think that would basically result in the compiler forcing you to handle every number that it can't prove isn't zero every time you have it as the divisor.
<aeth>
Static vs dynamic shows up here because there are times you know it isn't zero, but the compiler doesn't/can't know
<aeth>
So now you have to insert an extra check!
<aeth>
At least, if you forbid it from being a runtime error.
<aeth>
I think some languages break the definition of division so that division by zero is valid as another alternative.
<aeth>
As for languages implemented as elaborate macros like with Coalton, it probably would show up in arithmetic! (+ x y z) is probably going to become binary/dyadic instead of staying as variadic, and ultimately end up as something like (+ (+ x y) z) again back in CL, which means that the error of something like (/ x y z) might not line up with the source form.
<beach>
What do you mean by "not line up", and how is that important for error reporting?
<kchanqvq>
beach: debugger doesn't know which sub-form the error comes from in the original source form. Usually the best it can do is to jump to the whole top-level form, which is often not helpful
<beach>
Hmm.
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<aeth>
which is v in the SLIME debugger apparently
<beach>
I don't see how it could be done better. Either you report in terms of the form that the programmer typed, or else, you report in something that the programmer won't recognize.
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<kchanqvq76>
beach: this is where NOTE-SOURCE-TRANSFORMATION helps. The elaborated macro will call it to let impl knows subform C corresponds to subform D, then if CL impl has an error produced by D, debugger knows to jump to C
<beach>
I think I see.
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<aeth>
[trivial-]with-current-source-form is a lot more obvious because it's the compile time version (for the obvious underline location in macros) instead of a key in the SLIME debugger I had to look up (although maybe some people like kchanqvq use it all of the time).
<aeth>
but they are similar issues
<aeth>
if your (+ x y z) is a compile time error (for instance, maybe you have literal strings and + isn't used for string concatenate), then it's easy to use that to see (+ x y z) is where the error is, not in a macro body that could be several hundred lines
<aeth>
s/not in a macro body/not at the top level of the macro body/
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<aeth>
As for static type systems, they're (almost certainly) not going to save you from something like, say, a function that requires an invertible-matrix (matrix inversion seems like a decently elaborate way to probably wind up with division by zero at runtime even if your type system can check the more trivial cases)
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<beach>
I really don't see why someone would call for FORMAT to be eliminated, given that other Common Lisp programmers might like it. People who don't like FORMAT can just use something else. Nothing is stopping them.
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<mesaoptimizer>
I interpreted his proposal not as a call to change the spec but for people to create and adopt supposedly better alternatives
<decweb>
Has the described macro been implemented as a common lisp package somewhere?
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<mesaoptimizer>
"YTools (version 2.1.47, 2009-10-20) is a set of enhancements to Lisp, including improved macros for iteration, formatted I/O, file management, and even backquoting! Documentation includes detailed manual with over 50 pages; see Software Documentation, above. YTools version 2.1 includes a complete rewrite of the YTools File Manager based on the concept of "chunk" described in McDermott 2005. "
<jackdaniel>
format (along with loop) are two biggest (implementaiton-wise) operators in the standard, each requireing at least 2-3kloc
<jackdaniel>
on one hand it speaks volumes how much functionality each of these DSL pack inside
<jackdaniel>
on another, from the aesthetic perspective, not everyone is a fan of such DWIM languages, especially when they are not (per standard) extensible -- because it is rather hard to foresee all relevant use cases (and these DSLs would grow further then)
<jackdaniel>
on the third hand, READ is by all means extensible beyond imagination, yet it is rarely used as a general purpose recursive descend parser, which it is, in practice
<jackdaniel>
(READ is the third beast of apocalypse, standing side by side with LOOP and FORMAT :)
<beach>
I use READ (and PRINT) to save and restore arbitrary data structures to/from files. It is very simple and can handle sharing and circularity as those two operators can.
<jackdaniel>
yes, I mean that it is rarely used to implement parsers
<jackdaniel>
(other than common lisp source code)
<beach>
Oh, I see.
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<yitzi>
When I hear people make statements like "awful 'loop' and the hideous 'format'" in the YTools docs, I immediately disregard everything else they have to say. I completely understand valid criticisms of the CL spec, but language like that just makes me think they don't really understand the spirit of CL in being multiparadigm and the real pragmatic descisions that were made by the spec comittee.
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<beach>
Well said.
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<yitzi>
thanks!
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<yaroe>
I've been working on a document that aims to clarify monads with a few examples in Common Lisp. It's my attempt at creating the resource I wished I could have found when I was starting out.
<yaroe>
I thought some of you might find it interesting and I would appreciate any thoughts or comments you might have.
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<attila_lendvai>
last commit to quicklisp-projects is 7 months old... did something happen to Xach?
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<jackdaniel>
he made some commit in sharplispers around 2 months ago
<jackdaniel>
generally for the last 2 or 3 years his lisp activity is much less
<jackdaniel>
attila_lendvai: ^
<jackdaniel>
l1sp.org domain expired the other day as an example; I guess he has other things going on in his life
<attila_lendvai>
hrm... is there something that is nowadays obsoleting quicklisp?
<jackdaniel>
I think that there are at least a few initiatives
<jackdaniel>
there's ultralisp -- fast paced ql distro without any curation (just pulls from master)
<jackdaniel>
there's also vend (I think?) by fosskers and ocicl by atgreen
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<jackdaniel>
whether these things obsolete ql I do not know, I'm still using it; and there was a distro update recently-ish
<jackdaniel>
namely 2025-06-22
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<attila_lendvai>
Xach has put quite some effort into ql, and my impression is that he didn't get too much help from the community... (but i've been mostly away for some 10 years, so...)
<jackdaniel>
someone was putting much effort to package things for nixos (or was it guix?), but I didn't hear much about it recently
<Lycurgus>
did he quit?
<jackdaniel>
no, he made a ql release recently
<attila_lendvai>
i'm using guix, but i never get to install guix CL packages...
<Lycurgus>
sfaik the only interrrupt was for a family tragedy a few years back
<jackdaniel>
his activity just subsided; that said he's a cl hero imo even if he were to quit today :)
* attila_lendvai
agrees
<Lycurgus>
*a few short years
* jackdaniel
unwinds to sleep, gn \o
<Lycurgus>
gnite
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