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<scymtym>
i'm working on support for package-local nicknames in parcl and now i'm wondering wheter a proper specification has ever been written. i assume no since phoe's writeup (https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3 ) only links to code, documentation, notes, etc.
<ixelp>
Package-local nicknames in Common Lisp - a semishitpost about PLNs
<bike>
scymtym: As far as I can tell we've all just been mimicking SBCL. Which does at least have some good descriptions in the manual, but it's still obviously not a real specification.
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<scymtym>
bike: right, thanks. lispworks has hyperspec-inspired but presumable non-free descriptions of the operators as well. but yeah, i guess there is no proper specification
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<yottabyte>
hello, I tried to do some "vibe coding" with Claude and Gemini, I heard it's all the rave nowadays. I was unable to find any success. maybe one can't "vibe code" with CL like that. it's enough of a vibe to be coding in CL, I don't need AI!
<yottabyte>
the AIs would often get into a loop of wrong answers, repeating themselves. it wasn't much of a vibe to continually reprompt them for a better answer
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<jackdaniel>
don't buy snake oil, think of poor snakes!
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<jackdaniel>
or is snake oild made by separatimg the snail into two compounds? hm
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<Lycurgus>
yottabyte, were the able to produce cl at all?
<Lycurgus>
*were they
<Lycurgus>
since the can in common current algol-like langs
<Lycurgus>
*they can; prolly dont wanna train them on lisp for reasons
<Lycurgus>
those two products dont exhaust the space and it seems unlikely they'd have the best code generation
<Lycurgus>
i think that's something you prolly need to do urself, build the model from scratch maybe
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<yottabyte>
yes, and even do some stuff correctly, it just was not worth the effort for the results
<Lycurgus>
i c
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<Lycurgus>
wouldn be if you can type the vibes it can recognize faster than it can produce them
<Lycurgus>
produce them ready to use or nearly so
<mesaoptimizer>
Lycurgus: they understand CL and can produce simple correct CL code oneshot. For example, the fibonacci function.
<mesaoptimizer>
we are not yet at the point where you can use these models to do end-to-end development of economically valuable software systems.
<Lycurgus>
i didn think we were
<Lycurgus>
and that's not quite my intention altho something like that is
<Lycurgus>
and i dont think we're as far away from that as some ppl might like
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<Lycurgus>
and by we i mean me
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<Lycurgus>
i am competing against the capitalism so i have an inherent autarkic advantage
<mesaoptimizer>
Lycurgus: I didn't believe that you thought we were, don't worry. I was simply adding more context. From my perspective you simply don't think LLMs are that useful to you.
<Lycurgus>
well i dont see them as anything more than tools
<mesaoptimizer>
that's okay
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<Lycurgus>
they have a pretty narrow scope compared to the ops were were just alluding to
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<Lycurgus>
end-end is a lot more than vibes
<Lycurgus>
and as u say they're not actually killing vibes
<Lycurgus>
the main thing is the rough places have been made plain, a highway for our agents
<Lycurgus>
in terms of society in general
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<Lycurgus>
*we were just
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<metalisp>
hello o/
<Lycurgus>
yello metalisp
<metalisp>
hello Lycurgus
<treflip>
yottabyte: I've had mostly bad experience with "vibe coding" in dynamic languages. The only time llms could write code that kinda worked was when I tried Go.
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<treflip>
With CL it was a disaster. LLM choked on any non-trivial lisp code. Generated code had unbalanced parens. This was a complete shitshow :D
<metalisp>
without paredit i would have unbalanced parens too
<treflip>
metalisp: but you wouldn't make up non existent "built-in" functions
<metalisp>
because i am not a stochastic machine. but i think from a stochastic "perspective" it is "close"
<mesaoptimizer>
treflip: (1) add a function to automatically balance parens, (2) add a loop where the LLM sees the conditions and realizes it needs to either use real built-in functions or to make its own, and of course (3) the more SOTA the model you use, the lower its mistakes
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<mesaoptimizer>
I do notice that if you run an LLM blindly, it will design itself into a corner. It has no 'taste'. I found this out in December, which is why I entirely abandoned trying to vibe code and instead condinued to try to understand what it takes to build scalable, resilient, and maintainable software systems.
<mesaoptimizer>
(and yes, CL is at least partially downstream of this goal)
<metalisp>
i liked the book "modern software engineering" by david farley
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<mesaoptimizer>
thank you, I'll look at that after I finish reading "Designing Data-Intensive Applications"
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<yacin>
only thing i've been able to successfully "vibecode" in CL was using gemini to translate some previously vibecoded python to scrape a website and dump things into a sqlite db.
<yacin>
it did ok, but made some common mistakes (too many or too few parens on functions) and couldn't ever get lquery calls correctly, but eventually did it with plump and some manual work
<yacin>
i try it every so often, but they seem to struggle a lot with anything more esoteric than python/javascript/golang and once the context gets too large they seem to fall apart and/or make a bunch of useless changes that makes reviewing more work than just writing it
<Pixel_Outlaw>
yacin, wait until you see how it stumbles on the whole "Programmmable Programming Language" aspect.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Paste the hump on the bell curve of knowledge is becomes more and more useless currently.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
*past
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<yacin>
hah yeah i wouldn't expect it to do well there at all
<yacin>
i figured gemini would be better given all the ITA codebase they have access to
<yacin>
and in my limited experimentation, it did seem better than claude/chatgpt
<yacin>
but not much
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<aeth>
Something that specializes in codegen is probably going to do poorly because any boilerplate that works well with codegen can just be determistically generated with macros!
<aeth>
And any DSL is probably not going to have enough examples...
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