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<aeth>
If l1sp is being rebuilt, any chance of including an alternate version of the CL spec in the results? e.g. https://novaspec.org/
<ixelp>
Common Lisp Nova Spec
<aeth>
but I think there are several
<beach>
The Nova Spec seems the most promising since gilberth is present here and can fix and improve. I would also like for gilberth to take my HTML files for the MOP and include them in the Nova Spec some day.
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<jackdaniel>
g-gundam: fixed, thanks
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<Josh_2>
Hi hi
<Josh_2>
jackdaniel: You run turtleware right? if so I saw your blog post on embedding common lisp into the browser with WASM. Very very cool
<Josh_2>
Great to see that you got some funding to work on that!
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<Josh_2>
jackdaniel: what is the purpose of the virtual filesystem?
<Josh_2>
Bruh... McCLIM in the browswer would be incredible! :fingers_crossed:
<jackdaniel>
Josh_2: consider hosts without a filesystem; or bundling source code as part of the program image
<jackdaniel>
or editing a function (and compiling it) without touching a disk
<Josh_2>
I see, unrelated to the WASM stuff
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<jackdaniel>
WASI is a host without a filesystem
<Josh_2>
Yes that would be cool. I dont have any experience with ECL personally. Although, when you have a more stable API for the WASM interface I will see if there is something I can put this in. I can think of a few things at work that this would be good for but the interface would have to be very stable for that
<Josh_2>
I like CLOG but it uses js eval for almost everything and I found even reordering a form on a page could end up "appearing" quite slow
<jackdaniel>
before I'm set of final API I need to test whether it is still feasible after porting to WASI, but generally the shape of low level api will be "something like this"
<Josh_2>
I'm no JS programmer (for the best really) but I assume the purpose of this will be able to do what can be done in JS but using CL? Using CLOS etc
<jackdaniel>
yes, the low level api will be js, but I plan to layer on top of it a protocol that is derived from CLIM
<Josh_2>
Amazing
<jackdaniel>
generally CLOG is very nice, the main difference is that ECL doesn't require a running backend
<jackdaniel>
that is the whole program runs locally in the browser
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<ixelp>
lparallel.org is broken (when I checked), and mentioned on the github "About" section. · Issue #15 · sharplispers/lparal [...]
<jackdaniel>
I feel like a mindless tool fed with links :_)
<aeth>
One of these days, a search engine will say that.
<g-gundam>
jackdaniel: I generally don't want to bug people here about issues, but I feel like issue notifications are going into the void, and it was such an easy little thing to fix.
<aeth>
in case anyone didn't notice, https://planet.lisp.org/ seems to be back up, but there are no new posts
<ixelp>
Planet Lisp
<g-gundam>
aeth: When did it go down?
<aeth>
it went down sometime after the archive on Friday the 22nd (UTC, maybe Thursday your time) and came back before the archive a few hours ago. https://web.archive.org/web/20250000000000*/https://planet.lisp.org/
<ixelp>
Wayback Machine
<aeth>
With archives this sparse, I don't think there's a better timeframe
<jackdaniel>
g-gundam: I'm joking, I'm OK with that
<jackdaniel>
I've turned off github notifications when they've started trying to coerce me into using copilot and other nonsense
<jackdaniel>
(I don't host anything on github now, so my account is only for contributions to other projects)
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<Josh_2>
I have not experienced that with github
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<pl>
jackdaniel: I'm sorta tempted now to make CLOG recognize it's running on ECL-on-Browser and switch to more direct access APIs :D
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<pl>
jackdaniel: btw, I do not remember, in what state the console CLIM backend ended up? Doesn't need to be super complete, but I am tempted to use it on a certain project
<jackdaniel>
renderer and event processing work, but there are some transformation issues, and most notably, race conditions to the display (self rapairing though)
<jackdaniel>
I've put it aside for until I'm done with repaint queue in McCLIM
<pl>
how workable it is outside of ECL? Sorry for asking instead of just checking out, but that one is gated behind "fix up my Lisp work environment" :V
<jackdaniel>
the console backend was developed and tested with ecl, sbcl and ccl
<jackdaniel>
I'd personally use lower level abstractions defined in the system, because CLIM is not very usable except from "wow" effect that it works (due to issues mentioned earlier)
<jackdaniel>
having it fully operational will require refining how McCLIM implements auto-layout and defining console-tailored gadgets
<jackdaniel>
while generic gadgets /will/ work at some point, it is kind of absurd to draw full border around a button on such display, where the space is very precious
<pl>
jackdaniel: honestly, I was thinking mostly of abusing a somewhat basic listener
<pl>
... with maybe dropping SIXEL into it later :V
<jackdaniel>
I'm not planning to incorporate sixel graphics in the project
<pl>
oh, if I went that way, I'd be the one writing that part
<pl>
I have some places where I actually would benefit from an application that would detect whether it's on a serial terminal, linux framebuffer (ok, DRM/KMS), or X11 :|
<jackdaniel>
if it's in a fork then I don't care, what I mean is that I don't think that it is a good idea in my version of this
<jackdaniel>
but I'm moving slowly with my projects, so I'm sure you'd be able to make circles around me if you've put some effort into that
<pl>
I am fine with a semi-fork of extra patches on top of McCLIM - If I get client to agree to funding :V
<jackdaniel>
so, back to cons type kingdom, I've found a rather nasty test case for my method and I had to refine it, but things look promising now
<jackdaniel>
the nasty test case: (subtypep (cons (or symbol integer) (or symbol integer)) (or (cons symbol integer) (cons integer symbol)))
<jackdaniel>
from this test it becomes obvious that CAR and CDR are dependent types and can't be treated separately
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<pd21>
Hello everyone. I was wondering if there plans to introduce HTTPS and GPG signature verification to quicklisp? Downloading packages over HTTP without verifying their integrity, poses potential security risks.
<pd21>
Thanks. That issue has been open since 2018. It doesn’t look like it’s gonna be fixed, unfortunately.
<jackdaniel>
it isn't, but the thread contains a relevant context
<jackdaniel>
and mentions a fork that uses https directly, as well as a branch with signature verification
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<pd21>
I see
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<pl>
a bit of the issue is that quicklisp is supposed to bootstrap itself on close enough to everything. Think someone patched it at one point to run on Lisp machines, too
* semz
wrote something based on minisign for this purpose once, but then learned that QL's issue is everything but the actual crypto
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<pd21>
So the only quick lisp dev doesn’t want to fix it because it would affect a handful of users on systems that don’t have the required dependencies? Couldn’t he just make it optional for them then?
<jackdaniel>
I'd rather have you read the thread I've linked (and see what the dev actually said) than believe random chatter on irc
<pd21>
Gotcha
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<droo>
Are books like Common Lisp: The Language 2nd Edition by Steele and Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS by Keene still up to date for learning the CLOS? These books were written before the ANSI Common Lisp standard was released in 1995 so I wonder if they are outdated on the CLOS.
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<jackdaniel>
droo: CLtL2 is not agood resource for that, because it is pre-CLOS
<jackdaniel>
Keene's book is widely recommended though
<jackdaniel>
s/agood/a good/
<droo>
Really? CLtL2 has chapters on the CLOS
<jackdaniel>
no, I was wrong, sorry(!)
<jackdaniel>
I don't know why I've remembered it that way :|
<semz>
may have been thinking of the fact that CLtL2 is pre-standardization
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<droo>
Thanks. No worries. What about practical Common Lisp. Is it a better alternative to those two books since it’s more recent? It gives me the idea it’s more for those who want to do than for those who want to learn.
<jackdaniel>
it is also a very good book
<jackdaniel>
I've read usenet threads where the author consulted various tricky aspect of the language
<droo>
jackdaniel thanks for the links. It’s very helpful
<jackdaniel>
sure
<droo>
I mean is the coverage of the CLOS in practical Common Lisp as good as the others?
<jackdaniel>
I didn't read Keene's book, but I've heard many good things about it, most notably that it goes through various techniques that are worth incorporating in programs
<jackdaniel>
coverage of CLOS in Practical Common Lisp is very good -- there are things that are not touched in the book, but including them would only stand in a way (I don't recall details though)
<jackdaniel>
like defining custom method combinations (maybe?)
<pl>
coverage of CLOS in PCL is perfectly fine to get one started
<pl>
it won't go into advanced topics, but covering that takes time and in-depth discussion of differences in implementation etc.
<jackdaniel>
droo: if you have no previous experience with Common Lisp, then read Practical Common Lisp, if you want to refine your CLOS "fu", then perhaps skimming PCL and looking in detail into Keene's would be better
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<jackdaniel>
and if you want to got meta then read "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol"
<droo>
Cool jack. From your link, most differences between CLtL2 and ANSI CL are just additions from the latter so the CLOS sections should still be up to date
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<droo>
Do you think someone can jump into the chapters on PCL without reading previous chapters? I have a feeling it builds on previous chapters.
<jackdaniel>
it does
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<droo>
pl good point. Guess if I’m not satisfied with PCL’s coverage of it then I can read more advanced books on the topic
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<attila_lendvai_>
phantomics, random pondering: do you think it's worth keeping the (bits 32) pseudo instruction? is it a useful feature for a CL embedded assember to be able to switch execution mode at instruction-generation-time (as opposed to only be able to do it at compile-time)?
<phantomics>
attila_lendvai_, it could be useful in some situations. It'd be a pretty exotic use case, are there any prominent examples of its use you can point to?
<attila_lendvai_>
IOW, should it be a compile-time config, or a runtime value and then the instruction macros need to expand to code that dispatch on it at runtime
<attila_lendvai_>
phantomics, i have no idea, honestly. it's just that this is how nasm does it. a random idea: maybe when you write code that switches execution mode, then you need to switch to the new mode using the (bits 64) so that the rest of the instruction macros are emitting the right machine code
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<phantomics>
I haven't used nasm but I don't mind that approach, SpecOps could easily support something like switching modes midstream upon reading a macro
<attila_lendvai>
phantomics, i'm keeping an eye on runtime performance because i'll be using this in in a JIT in maru. the more decisions can be moved to compile-time, the better.
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<attila_lendvai>
and i think i'll move this to compile-time because one can always just wrap the rest of the code after an execution mode switch into a new with-asm macro with the right config...
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<attila_lendvai>
i'll just need to macros, like a with-asm and a with-asm-buffer, one for compile-time config and one for runtime capture of the output
<phantomics>
That sounds reasonable considering your performance needs. I could see building options into SO to enable or disable some kinds of checks at assembly time depending on the desired speed
<attila_lendvai>
s/to/two/
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<phantomics>
April uses the SBCL assembler for JIT assembly without much concern for assembly speed and there's been no perceptible impact on my tests. It didn't prevent me from beating Dyalog's speeds by an order of magnitude for optimized cases
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<attila_lendvai>
nice! it's probably not relevant in the big numbers, but it's tickling the idealist in me... :)
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<attila_lendvai>
hrm, my CL got rusty... is there an idiom for binding a special variable so that it's bound at macroexpand-time? i want to avoid setting it globally in an eval-when, and also want to avoid code walking...
<attila_lendvai>
...where i consider macroexpand-all as code walking
<ixelp>
hu.dwim.genassem/source/assembler/x86-instructions.lisp at main · hu-dwim/hu.dwim.genassem
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<aeth>
what's the reasoning behind expanding macros twice?
<Lycurgus>
something didn on the 1st ?
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<|3b|>
code walkers and editors might expand macros in addition to direct expansions from compiler, and an interpreter might expand more than expected as well
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<aeth>
yes, code walkers basically do expand macros, otherwise they don't know what to walk
<aeth>
but SBCL seems to reliably expand macros twice, always
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* |3b|
doesn't see that with a simple test here
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<aeth>
odd
<|3b|>
i think CLOS uses a code walker on SBCL though, so possibly that's what you are seeing?
<phantomics>
attila_lendvai_ that's neat, you're testing it against your printouts of the instructions looks like
<aeth>
I remember once having a print or some other side effect reliably show up twice, but if it doesn't consistently happen, then I probably can't reproduce it here.
<|3b|>
defmethod does expand twice
<phantomics>
With some macro work, you could have a test format where the written input looks like what you have, but the actual checks are against the binary output
<|3b|>
CLOS might also use interpreter sometimes too
<phantomics>
Like the macro checks each line of test spec text and finds the length in bytes of the instruction's expected output, then tests for those bytes
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<|3b|>
looks like eval might also expand then compile things in some cases
<|3b|>
expand and the compile the original (so expanding again), i mean
<attila_lendvai_>
phantomics i'm testing against the disassembly of nasm
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<phantomics>
I see
<attila_lendvai_>
phantomics, my code -> bytes -> disasm -> compare with earlier captured output
<phantomics>
The tricky thing with x86 is that there are so many possible encodings for some instructions
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<phantomics>
Like many assemblers won't produce the dedicated instructions that use the A register with immediate values. Compare this to something like IBM Z where each instruction has just one possible encoding
<phantomics>
dedicated opcodes that is
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<attila_lendvai_>
phantomics, i'm not there yet. in the first phase i'll just generate the numerous specific mnemonics from tablegen. then in a second phase i'll introduce on top if these fewer and smarter mnemonics that select from the various encodings.
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<attila_lendvai_>
sadly, i have no clue about the x86 machine code... it makes progress two steps ahead, one step back...
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