<ukky>
zorz_: /etc/runit/1 will fail if udev is not available, but who does not have udev installed these days?
<ukky>
zorz_: other than that, you did a good job. And kudos for using hard tabs. Question: why do you have /command in the PATH? That's unusual directory for Linux.
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<zorz>
ukky: COMMAND in path is the default of Pape, S6, daemontools... not to mess with distributions... i took it off now.
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<zorz>
farkuhar: online ?
<ukky>
zorz_: okay. That path should be used only on a systems with any of those tools installed, and should not be in the PATH otherwise.
<SiFuh>
zorz: You paying farkuhar to be your friend?
<ukky>
zorz: hitting Ctrl+C while runit gets compiled will make your system unbootable
<zorz>
farkuhar: feel free to use it :P
<zorz>
hahahahahah
<zorz>
SiFuh: hahaha
<zorz>
ukky: what you mean?
<SiFuh>
ukky: zorz: farkuhar: every tried running the command init 1 on CRUX then running it again whilst in single user mode?
<zorz>
and why to hit Ctrl+C
<SiFuh>
I have a feeling the CRUX rc script umounts /run so if you go into init 1 it can't inject a 0 or 6 into /run/runlevel. Might look into it sometime in the near future.
<ukky>
zorz: you remove sysvinit and rc _before_ you start compiling runit. So, essentially, if build fails, or you hit Ctrl+C while runit is building, you end up with no init system at all.
<zorz>
okay we change order
<zorz>
:P
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: No, I never tried switching runlevels so often. Usually I only switch runlevels when rebooting or powering down.
<SiFuh>
ukky: You don't need rc to get a prompt ;-)
<zorz>
farkuhar: btw is pkgmk understands folders? or only files?
<ukky>
zorz: no. You should _not_ remove any package within Pkgfile. It is not the job of Pkgfile to remove packages.
<zorz>
ukky: okay i take it off
<SiFuh>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<zorz>
the problem is if you remove after sysvinit, will remove the /sbin/init and you stay unbootable.
<ukky>
zorz: using prt-get command inside Pkgfile is a hack
<SiFuh>
ukky: zorz: As I said the other day... A lot of people are under the misconception that the init scripts are for booting your system. This is not entirely true. It is a list of commands to run whilst the system is coming up.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: Are you referring to an empty field after the third colon in /etc/inittab when you say "don't need rc to get a prompt"? Or do you still get a prompt even if the third field refers to a nonexistent file?
<ukky>
zorz: that's why /sbin/init should _not_ belong to _any_ init system. /sbin/init should be provided by third package. On my system, it is locoverlay/sbin-init-runit
<farkuhar>
In my tests, if the third field of the requested runlevel in /etc/inittab refers to a nonexistent script, then I don't even get a prompt, and I have to use a rescue disk.
<zorz>
ukky i will add info in post-intall for removing sysvinit relink /sbin/init
<zorz>
if is somebody like me that not reads... will stay unbootable hahahahah
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: You can run this remove /etc/rc from lines like this rc::sysinit:
<ukky>
zorz: it is up to you, you are the runit boss now.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: That's what I thought you meant. But if you leave the inittab as-is, and just remove /etc/rc from the disk, then init will try to launch a nonexistent script and you won't even get a prompt.
<ukky>
SiFuh: I did not use sysvinit, nor rc, for almost a year
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I erased it completely many times all of them...
<zorz>
ukky: just changed the git, i update the post-install info
<zorz>
its is clear I think O_o
<zorz>
ukky: i really enjoy init 0|6
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I can boot with this. Just nothing gets mounted and root is ro because I set ro in SYSLINUX https://dpaste.com/GE4SC6NQL.txt
<ukky>
zorz: the ideal procedure for installing runit over sysvinit would include creating default boot entry, adding 'INIT=/sbin/runit-init', without removing /sbin/init
<ukky>
zorz: and runit package should not add/remove /sbin/init
<SiFuh>
ukky: When I was doing rc tests, I just made /etc/init.d/ and ran the scripts from there so that if anything failed, I could still run the original untouched scripts from CRUX.
<ukky>
SiFuh: understood.
<zorz>
ukky actually is a good idea to not link in Pkgfile, and info the user with the post-install how to link it so he knows. mv /sbin/init /sbin/init.nak ln -sf /sbin/runit-init /sbin/init
<ukky>
zorz: do not print anything in post-install, user will not notice what you are printing when 100 packages are reinstalled.
<ukky>
zorz: Crux is not supposed to be used by inexperienced users. There are plenty of distros for starting Linux learning curve.
<SiFuh>
or retards that pretend to be developers
<ukky>
We have a consensus here that 'maintainer != developer'
<farkuhar>
sysvinit already installs one symlink to /sbin/init, namely /sbin/telinit. Indeed, I have more muscle memory for `telinit 1` than for the `init 1` that SiFuh asked about.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I've been saying that for years ;-) No need a consensus, besides evidence of the olutmies abomination is proof alone he ain't no developer.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: You have a muscle inside your head?
<zorz>
okay finish.
<zorz>
this farkuhar's muscle memory frightness me
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: "muscle memory" is a figure of speech. They don't use that expression Down Under?
<SiFuh>
zorz: frightness?
<zorz>
fearness
<zorz>
hehehe
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Isn't a figure of speech like eight, nine ten?
<SiFuh>
[zorz> this farkuhar's muscle memory frightens me
<ukky>
Guys, if zorz is the only runit user you should not make your SysV init system compatible with runit. zorz can handle removal of sysvinit on his systems.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I had no intentions to be honest. Because per wanted BSD style init scripts from the beginning
<ukky>
SiFuh: that's my point
<SiFuh>
I just wanted as a user replaceable port. With an indepth readme
<SiFuh>
I've no intentions of running runit on CRUX at the moment or the forseeable future. I am liking me ANSI C version of rc more and more.
<SiFuh>
me/my
<farkuhar>
I wonder how many users created a dup of core/rc after seeing the olutmies abomination. By now it should be common knowledge that even the core ports are replaceable by the users.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Even the ordering was wrong but that wasn't to do with olutmies.
<farkuhar>
I'm actually surprised that it took so long to stop distributing the rc scripts directly through the ports tree, and switch to downloading a tarball instead. Granted, they don't take up too much disk space, but it feels kind of unclean to have the ports tree cluttered with the actual programs.
<zorz>
SiFuh: random seed
<ukky>
farkuhar: I have 26 modified ports in core-3.7
<SiFuh>
zorz: Yes commented out with an explanation to the reasons why you can uncomment it before installation.
<SiFuh>
But this creates a new problem. It can be overwritten by installation of an update
<SiFuh>
ukky: farkuhar: By the way. I can log in very fast with ssh and at a terminal with the ANSI C version. When I switch back to the bash version it is sooooooo damned slow. Takes like 30 seconds for ssh to give a login prompt and 15 seconds (About) to log into the terminal.
<farkuhar>
ukky: Speaking of 3.7, the 4-week grace period is about to expire, and 3.7 branches will stop getting updates. Any suggestions what I should do with my CRUX 3.7 (glibc) laptop? I'm torn between updating it to CRUX 3.8 (glibc), switching to CRUX-MUSL 3.8, or wiping the disk and installing OpenBSD instead.
<zorz>
SiFuh: prepeare an ansi C for my runit :P
<SiFuh>
No
<zorz>
yes
<SiFuh>
But my rc.c is available for testing.
<SiFuh>
I sent to emmett1 and dlcusa already.
<zorz>
farkuhar: glibc so you have a working verion of gimp hahahaha
<SiFuh>
And it is under BSD licence. So farkuhar can't poach it and take credit for it.
<ukky>
farkuhar: I would install *BSD, but that's me. Depends on what HW your laptop has.
<SiFuh>
ukky: farkuhar: Don't bother if you have NVIDIA
<dlcusa>
SiFuh, it's really clean. My only concern is if it goes south somehow, it may not be as straight-forward to fix the prob as it would be using a shell script.
<SiFuh>
I left one or two debug features in and many of the verbose can be uncommented.
<farkuhar>
ukky: ThinkPad, about 6 years old
<ukky>
SiFuh: I had similar experience when switched from sysvinit to runit. Sysvinit took 50 seconds to login prompt, and runit took about 10 seconds.
<farkuhar>
zorz: I don't really care about gimp to be honest. I was just trying to reproduce ppetrov^s build error.
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: And I have atwo failsafes as well. You can't directly run rc shutdown or rc single unless you PID 1 but also it checks on the side what runlevel you are.
<dlcusa>
I was thinking recompiling and linking in single level or worse.
<ukky>
farkuhar: probably OpenBSD or NetBSD. Depends on driver availability. For FreeBSD 6 years old might be too old.
<SiFuh>
ukky: emmett1 was complaining about it today. "Thats cool. Because current rc script is slow to get into login prompt, i already told you before."
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: What if we had a failsafe rc in bash?
<dlcusa>
That would mitigate any such situation--that's fine.
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: When I was working on the BASH version and the ANSI C version I had two rc scripts. Original and custom. That way when I hit single user level I could always manually launch the old init.
<ukky>
SiFuh: if you remove /etc/rc.d/net and /etc/rc.d/sshd from SERVICES, it Crux will start _much_ faster.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: The biggest slowdown in my experience is the /etc/rc.d/sysklogd. If you change the flags passed to start-stop-daemon, you can get to a prompt much faster.
<zorz>
farkuhar: join #gimp
<zorz>
:P
<SiFuh>
ukky: Yep, learned that already.
<ukky>
dhcpcd is too slow, and /etc/rc waits until it gets IP before continuing any further
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: My headache was crond always showing dillon or some shit. Like I care who he is. Had to edit /etc/rc.d/crond and replace info with 0
<zorz>
SiFuh: does not like dillon
<SiFuh>
I have an idea. Let's test the seconds to boot my ANSI C and the olutmies rc.
<farkuhar>
zorz: tell ppetrov^ to join #gimp. I'm not really a gimp user, I just try to troubleshoot problems with the contrib ports.
<dlcusa>
Would you like some salt to also rub in at the same time?
<zorz>
hehe joking
<dlcusa>
Actually, test against systemd and send results to Agent P.
* ukky
is afk
<SiFuh>
ukky: farkuhar: zorz: dlcusa: On this slow dinosaur machine. ANSI C = 31.60 from reboot to login prompt. olutmies rc abomination 1:04.73 from reboot to login prompt.
<SiFuh>
30.60*
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: I plan to add more commented out printf notices in the future for debugging purposes and take a fresh look at the rc single and rc shutdown options.
<dlcusa>
I think you're really doing great work here, SiFuh. Applause!!!
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: Better thank farkuhar. He'll poach it and post it as his own. :-P
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: Also according to OpenBSD I should put little notices everywhere explaining what each part is doing. That will take a long time.
<SiFuh>
Like this. structfoo *next;/* List of active foo */
<dlcusa>
That doesn't sound at all crucial.
<SiFuh>
Neither does an rc in binary :-P
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: I was reading about the pros and cons for a binary rc. I don't think the cons were even relevant
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: One of the cons is what you mentioned about not being editable in single user mode.
<dlcusa>
It's best pro would be significantly improved init startup speed.
<farkuhar>
The only difference between "compiled" and "interpreted" is *when* the translation to machine code happens. Both types of programs eventually get translated to machine code. But for a compiled program, not having a working gcc in single-user mode might be a problem.
<dlcusa>
s/It's/Its/
<SiFuh>
Oh yeah, that blew me away. No lo....net....crond....sshd.... It was like 'lo net crond sshd' boom there you go, in your face!
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: can always include an rc.failsafe in the ports dir, that you could launch when messing around.
<farkuhar>
Many of those scripts under /etc/rc.d could be sped up themselves, just by changing the flags that are passed to start-stop-daemon.
<SiFuh>
Just mention it in the readme. If you are editing this source. Temporarily copy the rc.failsafe into /etc so you can still boot.
<SiFuh>
When you get a prompt after failure you can just run '/etc/rc.failsafe' and it will continue booting.
<SiFuh>
Besides... It will be educational for those who don't seem to understand how the boot process works in Linux
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: I though this was a bit weird. Indentation is an 8 character tab. Second level indents are four spaces. All code should fit in 80 columns. In the OpenBSD man pages.
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: But after doing it, holy crap. I could find where I was up to easily for modifcation rather than having to search where I was.
<dlcusa>
I'm not too concerned about style--yours is fine.
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: All done manually. Nothing automated.
<SiFuh>
dlcusa: Did you try booting from it yet?
<dlcusa>
afk for the moment...
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: You want to test it?
<zorz>
yes SiFuh is happy today Putin accepted Anwar Ibrahim
<zorz>
heh
<SiFuh>
BAHAHAHAHAH
<SiFuh>
Dudes a criminal
<SiFuh>
And his daughter is in the WEF if I remember correctly
<SiFuh>
zorz: I had a cartoon for you that I found yesterday... See if I can get it for you
<SiFuh>
China folded but it wasn't made public on Mainstream Media
<zorz>
they need to export
<zorz>
real estate buble hit china
<SiFuh>
Of course, their entire system is based on export.
<SiFuh>
zorz: I went to their Shanghai Expo. The moment they see my face is not Chinese they would try to make a deal with me and then ask me to add them to MSN messenger. Weird. But you can see they were basically begging for buyers.
<SiFuh>
zorz: And on ebay, having high star ratings was more important to them than the product.
<SiFuh>
Imagine a parallel universe where 'Made in China' meant quality
<zorz>
in Germany they say dont buy chinesse cars because transmissions are weak not made to last.
<dlcusa>
I hope to test if soon, SiFuh.
<SiFuh>
zorz: My friend bought a Great Wall. And I know another guy who did too. 1% incline and the car slows down. Hahaha they both complain how gutless it is.
<zorz>
you see
<zorz>
in germany they analyse this SUV named MG
<SiFuh>
zorz: Of course, I wouldn't buy one. Screw that shit
<zorz>
and they said trasmision is kinda fake
<zorz>
what you pay is what you get :P
<SiFuh>
zorz: I bought a car from a reasonable era the 1990. I need to weight lift so I can have power windows when I wind them up.
<zorz>
china made iphones... never :P
<SiFuh>
zorz: I use China phones. But they don't last long.
<SiFuh>
I have a Solid State battery phone here. Two actually.
<SiFuh>
It is like the last thing on my mind, well that's a lie. It is never on my mind when I go outside. Hahaha I think my screen time is like 10 seconds a month.
<SiFuh>
I used it today for stop watch to time the boot process. That's probably the longest I have used it in a year. Hahaha
<SiFuh>
Back in 2001 there was a guy the flipped from SuSE Linux (Before openSuSE) to FreeBSD. His saying was "I know how computers work, I just hate them" I have always used that saying since.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: what's the connection between weight lifting and 1990s-era cars with power windows?
<zorz>
hehehe
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Simple joke. If you want power windows and you need to wind up because you have no electric windows. You weight lift to get muscles. SO you can use your power to wind them up.
<farkuhar>
Oh, so the 1990s-era cars are more likely to NOT have electric windows?
<SiFuh>
zorz: My wife has some fob that sets an alarm off if you manually open the doors with a key. I remember in 2018 tell her it was a stupid thing. Because if you have the key, why need to disable the alarm with the remote. In 2024 her battery went flat on her fob. She had to use the key. She was so embarrassed that she was driving around with a car alarm going off she refuses to use the fob anymore. Now
<SiFuh>
she only uses the key. Heh.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: In most countries, most cars never had electric windows farkuhar
<SiFuh>
Youw wanted electric windows, you had to pay for it.
<SiFuh>
zorz: These young people...
<zorz>
hahahahaa
<zorz>
GenerationPlay Station
<farkuhar>
I've never gone shopping for a car myself, so I have no idea which features are universal and which are optional, either in the 1990s or any other decade.
<zorz>
farkuhar: ask chatgpt
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Do you even have a licence to drive?
<zorz>
ooooooooo gosh
<zorz>
no license?
<SiFuh>
zorz: licence not license
<SiFuh>
license is a verb. licence is a noun
<farkuhar>
zorz: ChatGPT is not to be trusted.
<zorz>
chatgpt is only to writing regular expressions and loops :P
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I asked it a question about piece of my code today. It was so wrong and after I explained it was wrong, it tried to spam me with a solution that I knew wouldn't work and after a few minutes of me getting annoyed it somehow reverted back to the original it posted. Then as it's final solution it copied my exact same code. I had to tell it off 3 times before it realised it was just pasting back
<SiFuh>
my shit and not doing anything useful.
<SiFuh>
Then I closed it. After I said "You are so f*cking stupid, just always spamming shitin circles."
<SiFuh>
zorz: Here is a funny one. It sent me a piece of code I new wouldn't work. I closed it and opened a new session and sent the exact same code to it and it replied "Your code is full of errors" (Paraphrasing) and I was like 'The cheek of this fucker. It wrote that fucking code'
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I haven't actually found a viable use for it yet
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I asked a question "What does the N mean as a result in the runlevel command?" Like 2,000 words spam my screen about everything that runlevel does before it said it basically doesn't know.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: How much weight will an argument based on "Per's vision" carry, when trying to persuade jue to revert the olutmies abomination in favor of something simpler?
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Probably none because they seem to not give a shit anymore.
<SiFuh>
As I said before. They have many ports to maintain and after Romster's departure, they needed someone to fill the void. Therefore, as a result, olutmies is getting away with bloody murder and theya re all sitting back letting it happen.
<SiFuh>
simple English for zorz. What olutmies wants, olutmies gets, because he does all the port maintainence work for us. And we can sit back and have a cold beer.
<farkuhar>
I used GazL's framing for the title of my revised PR, but in the comment I closed with a reference to Per's vision. Citing GazL was meant to remind them that their work is a service to CRUX users; citing Per was meant to recall the principles that might have drawn them to the distro all those years ago.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I've been trying to remember all of his words. I remember this. Light weight, bleeding edge i686 distro. Uses BSD style init, simple, neat, no added extra junk or junk files or junk in files, reliance on man pages only, completely source based.... and there are some more but they hadn't come to mind yet.
<SiFuh>
Like no NLS
<SiFuh>
Basically it was a bare bones system that the user can ADD to and not the developers/maintainers GIVE you
<SiFuh>
And I remember when contrib was introduced. It was introduce for custom versions of crux not contrib ports. However, contrib ports eventually were introduced because it attracted users.
<SiFuh>
CRUX LAWS <-- I am adding this into my log files so I can search it easily. So if I do think of anything new, I can append it it
<SiFuh>
new/old hehehe When I do start to recall them I can add to them.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: There is something I have been thinking about for a few weeks now but never mentioned it. I wonder how olutmies felt after modifying the rc script. Did he feel proud and think everyone will love it? Then suddenly it draws big attention from a few users and not his glory has gone because not only was it a shit idea, but his code was shit too?
<SiFuh>
Must be pretty devestating if it went down that way, and rather than accepting his mistake, he gets prideful and angry
<SiFuh>
Just some thoughts I toss around in my head...
<SiFuh>
Maybe one of those kind of people who get into a position of fake power and suddenly think they are almighty, and on that hates being told off that they are wrong
<SiFuh>
Maybe he is Chinese and NOT German. Hahahahaha
<SiFuh>
My wife tells me to get in the right land. So I get ready to change lanes. She suddenly screams at me telling me to change lanes NOW! I said "I can't (Loudly) because there is a car in that lane" and I don't want to smash her car. After that, she refuses to give directions. Hahaha olutmies style.
<SiFuh>
land/lane*
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I think I will sneak a steering wheel under the driver's seat that way next time she shouts at me I can reach under the seat and hand her, her very own steering wheel.
* SiFuh
goes and looks for the Supra Steering Wheel.
<farkuhar>
How olutmies felt after modifying the rc script? That would depend on how much of the modification was original to him, and how much was copied more-or-less verbatim from TinyCore Linux. Didn't we see an uncanny resemblance between the TinyCore colorization and the olutmies rc?
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: In a way, I think so, but in reality, I don't think he had. Maybe is all I can suggest.
<SiFuh>
But yeah, was very similar
<SiFuh>
Suspiciously similar
<zorz>
i never tried tiny core linux.... dont give ideas :P
<SiFuh>
I found the Supre wheel, should fit under her car seat.
<SiFuh>
zorz: You won't like it. It is near impossible to install with their installer.
<zorz>
i read sometime... file hierarchy... and packages... and as i recall... I said to myself fuck it :P
<SiFuh>
zorz: I have it here. I had to manually install it. For example. "Where are the TLC packages located?" I select /dev/sda1 but then it bitches because sda3 is where I am installing it and sda1 is a considered a mounted drive on the install drive. So I tried from USB and then it bitched about that. In the end I just manually extracted all of it into a folder and pointed SYSLINUX to it.
<zorz>
i get it
<zorz>
i mean tiny core, sounds cool and dragora and and but people dont pay attention
<SiFuh>
Yeah it's really stupid. But it works. And that is how I stumbled accross the rc having what suspiciously looks like the same colour variable idea that olutmies was doing in CRUX.
<zorz>
i would like the idea of having an extra small partition with tiny core installed instead of systemresque
<SiFuh>
I was actually researching it for an install USB. Boot tiny core and install CRUX from it. I actually dislike how the modern CRUX ISO works. Loads a rootfs into memory. Why not just make a bootable CRUX ISO. That runs a live-like system from the USB and not bother with loading to memory. Or at least that option. That was limited RAM users can install it without chewing up the memory? What is with busy
<SiFuh>
box? Why bother with that.
<SiFuh>
That was/That way*
<SiFuh>
Why have a specifial kernel configured for a rootfs load? Why not just boot CRUX itself from the ISO as a normal system?