<il>
the encryption is only between the client and the server
<il>
it's not E2EE
<kris_>
i trust them more than something like discord though
<il>
That's true
<LeoM>
lol
<kris_>
also some clients do support OTR
<il>
Assuming privacy on discord is insane
<kris_>
wish OTR was more common
<il>
kris_: doesn't XMPP use OTR?
<kris_>
either that or OMEMO yeah
<il>
I just know it's a PITA for group chats
<kris_>
OMEMO is the new standard though
<kris_>
because of group chats
<il>
Yeah, OMEMO
<LeoM>
I just can't get around the fact that you can't reply, delete, edit, send multiline messages, use markdown formatting or upload files and images directly
<il>
OMEME
<il>
LeoM: it's bloat
<riteo>
I mean this is a public group so I don't really care for encryption here
<kris_>
LeoM: you'll get used to it, i feel like it makes people consider their messages more before they send them
<il>
This forces you to understand and have better control of your media
<riteo>
you can just look at the logs on whitequark anyway lol
<il>
When you upload shit to discord, they permanently store that shit
<il>
even if you delete the message
<riteo>
oh btw whitequark changed domain
<riteo>
now it redirects to catirclogs.org
<il>
When you host your files yourself, the link might stay in logs, but you can remove the file
<LeoM>
I would move my friends to qTox but they dont want to
<il>
Time to get new friends
<LeoM>
thanks!
<il>
I don't know what qTox is
<riteo>
IIRC tox is basically dead?
<kris_>
i still use discord because i can't get my friends to use anything else :p
<riteo>
I wouldn't really recommend it honeslty
<il>
Yeah, I use discord as well, but it's just a gaming chat
<LeoM>
riteo: Its been taken over by someone new
<riteo>
if you want something "normie-friendly" I'd either go with Matrix or dunno, simplex
<kris_>
i hosted an xmpp server for them there for a while and they just started complaining about how bad the clients are
<LeoM>
very frequent commits last time I checked
<il>
I've heard teamspeak is quite good lately, so that might be good
<kris_>
riteo: xmpp *is* normie friendly imo
<il>
And it's been ages since I used mumble
<il>
But mumble is good IMO
<il>
Friends hate it
<kris_>
if you use a good client and use a server set up by someone who knows what they're doing it really isn't bad
<il>
kris_: lmao, no, I'm sorry
<riteo>
mhhh never tried xmpp, never had a good excuse for it really
<kris_>
il: really?
<il>
xmpp is so much less friendly than... signal, wa, viber
<riteo>
dunno mumble looks like a perfect teamspeak clone
<riteo>
that said last time I used it I was like 10
<il>
There's no way I could get my grandma to use conversations e.g.
<kris_>
the only issue my normie friends had was with the ios clients
<riteo>
"a user JOINED the serverrrrr"
<il>
kris_: I think your definition of 'normie' is too narrow
<kris_>
desktop at least xmpp is a really good experience
<il>
Think about the 40+ crowd
<kris_>
gajim is a solid clienjt
<il>
Yeah, gajim is okay...
<il>
Syncing omemo keys between clients was shit
<il>
I had a shit load of chats that were only readable on one client
<il>
not normie friendly imo
<kris_>
the main problem i have is how annoying the server side of this is but only one person has to be conscious of that
<kris_>
prosody depends on some ancient lua libraries that most things just don't have packaged but are required for encrypted notifs on ios
<kris_>
i couldn't get ejabberd to even execute
<kris_>
the whole situation with coturn is so fucked that i ended up just saying "fuck it, we'll use mumble"
<il>
I don't know what coturn is
<kris_>
idk i wish more irc clients would support OTR, i only personally expect 1 on 1 conversations to be encrypted, encrypting a chat like #kisslinux is pointless
<kris_>
coturn is a turn server, it's required for voice chat
<il>
I have never hosted xmpp, thankfully, but I've heard the same things you're talking about
<il>
kris_: I agree with this
<il>
Inacessible group chats are pointless
<il>
for most things
<il>
The people who hosted that xmpp server, while technically capable, were so ideologically annoying to me (while being terribly unread on THEIR positions) that I stopped using that server and xmpp altogether
<kris_>
when was this?
<il>
Some people do some ideas a disservice by associating themselves with the ideas
<il>
kris_: Oh... End of last year. Why?
<kris_>
i hosted for my friends maybe 6 months ago and they were all completely able to get into it without help
<il>
It's a local hackerspace
<kris_>
ah, just curious if this was a while ago
<il>
I used it for almost 2 years
<kris_>
but apparently the ios clients are borderline unusable
<kris_>
which, ios bad yada yada, is still an issue
<LeoM>
guys why when I start the eiwd service does it say: The following options are missing in the kernel: CONFIG_CRYPTO_ECB, CONFIG_CRYPTO_CBC, CONFIG_CRYPTO_USER_API_SKCIPHER
<LeoM>
All of them are built into the kernel
<il>
Did I ever mention that I never got kiss linux running
<il>
I've only looked into it once maybe 4-5 years ago, but I didn't find satisfactory documentation
<il>
It was probably me
<kris_>
idk, i didn't have too much issue with the existing docs but there's stuff you're expected to already know
<il>
Like?
<il>
I've never compiled the kernel or done stuff like that, I don't know if I've used chroot twice ever
<kris_>
how to configure your kernel would be a big one and is the primary thing i see people having problems with
<kris_>
though its simple to consult the gentoo docs for that
<il>
Yeah, I have no experience messing with kernel
<il>
Ah
<il>
What OS do you suggest piggybacking off of?
<riteo>
yeah we should put a note there
<riteo>
my fallback doc is the gentoo stuff
<kris_>
wdym by piggybacking off of, like bootstrapping from?
<il>
Yeah
<kris_>
i usually bootstrap everything from void
<kris_>
just because void is the OS i know the best
<kris_>
has a history of being my default for pretty much whatever
<riteo>
i think you can really use any live iso
<il>
Yeah, I've never done it from void, but I should try that
<il>
It's my favorite linux
<kris_>
and yeah you can just use whatever you feel like
<il>
distro
<il>
Using debian is probably a bit rarted, though
<kris_>
i'm in the process of migrating a few void boxes to gentoo though
<il>
y?
<kris_>
tired of things blowing up when i update them
<il>
Really? They blow up with void?
<kris_>
wasn't an issue for like 3 years but recently i've been having a lot of issues and my patience has worn out lol
<il>
I've never really had a negative experience with void, though I never used it for a very long period of time
<kris_>
has been the only distro ive run for like 3 and a half years
<il>
I need to fix up my newest old thinkpad and install void on it... the cmos bat is dead...
<kris_>
might need to once things are actually happening IRL for me :P
<kris_>
i think nextcloud has a calendar feature?
<il>
Yeah, I really get use out of calendars
<il>
For remembering birthdays, anniversaries, things like that
<il>
academic deadlines
<il>
kris_: it does, I think it's cursed
<il>
I was never really impressed with nextcloud
<kris_>
i've never tried it
<kris_>
it gives me corporate vibes, what that actually means i can't really tell you
<kris_>
i can just usually immediately tell if i like the vibe of a project or not and that isn't one of them
<il>
Yeah, I don't know what I think about the web ui they have lol
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<midfavila>
i use nextcloud at work
<midfavila>
it's
<midfavila>
mediocre
<midfavila>
better than google shit i guess
<midfavila>
the web ui sucks and is way too glitzy and glammy
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<kris_>
midfavila: evolution hours
<kris_>
ive been avoiding source distros for literally forever because i found it pointless but the amount of actual speed bump ive gotten on my server is blatant
<kris_>
im just surprised because my server is a piece of shit but it's not such a piece of shit that i would think it would be as blatant
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<midfavila>
kris_: it's almost like there's a method to the madness
<midfavila>
i never have dependency hell or weird misconfigurations or missing features or anything when i use kiss and everything just runs more smoothly under it
<midfavila>
then i use debian for .02 seconds and want to die
<midfavila>
also most of the software i care about isn't packaged under debian etc anyway
<midfavila>
so
<midfavila>
i could fight uphill with their stuff,
<midfavila>
wait for someone to package it,
<midfavila>
or just build everything by hand every time
<kris_>
debian very well might as well be the worst OS i've ever used personally
<kris_>
its just so bad at what it tries to do
<kris_>
though of course there's always worse like manjaro so w/e
<midfavila>
manjaro can update without bricking itself
<midfavila>
debian cat
<midfavila>
cant
<midfavila>
lmfao
<kris_>
ive never had debian do that
<LeoM>
nor have i
<kris_>
there are tons of broken dependency trees all over the repo though
<midfavila>
there was a critical packaging error between 9 and 10
<midfavila>
or maybe it was 10 and 11
<kris_>
idk its just impressive that its as bad as it is given the insane amount of time they have to test a new release
<midfavila>
where they moved a file from the gcc package to some other package and introduced a circular dependency for core system software
<midfavila>
so every time you tried to update it would break apt and most of your software
<kris_>
hey emerge at least tells me about circular dependencies ive caused and doesnt do anything until i resolve it myself
<midfavila>
and my buddy was coping super hard because NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MID YOU'RE JUST AN IDIOT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
<midfavila>
and like
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
i will fully admit to that
<midfavila>
sometimes i do incredibly stupid things
<midfavila>
but i do have the mystical superpower of following written instructions
<kris_>
ive found that most of my stupid ass brain moments are actually due to just not eating right
<kris_>
as of recently
<midfavila>
and when i follow written instructions to upgrade debian
<midfavila>
and debian breaks because debian fucked up something super basic
<kris_>
tbh ive never even looked
<midfavila>
like
<midfavila>
????????????????????????????????
<kris_>
i just edit the sources list and then run apt update && apt upgrade as per usual
<kris_>
i went from 9 -> 10 -> 11 -> 12 like that
<midfavila>
yeah thats what i was doing
<midfavila>
verbatim
<midfavila>
there was even a thing on the debian mailing lists where they confirmed it was an actual upstream error
<midfavila>
i just don't have it on hand
<kris_>
the funny situation with linus from ltt blowing up his popos install was actually an upstream debian bug btw
<midfavila>
yeah doesn't surprise me
<kris_>
or well i guess ubuntu but fundamentally debian
<midfavila>
"debian is so minimal, debian is so stable!!!"
<kris_>
though linus is an idiot for letting the system do that
<kris_>
minimal my left asshole dude, 95% of recommends is bloat
<kris_>
and then you hit the 5% where they've mislabeled an actual dependency as a recommended package
<midfavila>
don't even go to minimal, "mandatory" libs and shit are trash most of the time too
<kris_>
and have broken packages as a result of it if you chose to not install recommends because 95% of it is completely unrelated
<midfavila>
all to support a feature used by .0000000000000000002% of users
<midfavila>
because muh adoption
<midfavila>
muh market share
<midfavila>
muh muh
<midfavila>
MUH MUH MUH
<kris_>
what mostly pushes me off of debian is how they're very happy to just let security vulns remain
<kris_>
"noooo we cant change anything for another 2 years"
<kris_>
fuck you, backport the patch
<midfavila>
honestly fuck debian. all my homies hate debian.
<kris_>
hell, most of the time upstream PROVIDES a patch
<midfavila>
slackware gang.
<midfavila>
literally none of this is a problem with slackware lmfao
<kris_>
slackware has.. other issues
<midfavila>
and yet everyone is always screeching about muh updoots with slackware
<kris_>
thank thank fuck slackware provides HP printer drivers though
<kris_>
dunno what id do without that
<midfavila>
muh upddoots i gotta updooooooooooot aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
<kris_>
i only really want things to change when there's a vuln
<midfavila>
there was a minor bump to a branch likely to be incorporated into master, time to updoot
<midfavila>
"it's 3am, time for your minutely maintenance honey!"
<kris_>
or some bug that's making it impossible to do my thing
<kris_>
like with linux 6.12 there for a while
<midfavila>
i'm still on like
<midfavila>
5.xx
<midfavila>
i think
<midfavila>
whatever the last release without rust was
<kris_>
everything except for my desktop is on 6.12
<kris_>
my desktop is on 6.15
<midfavila>
i fully intend to switch to the hyperbsd kernel once it's released on everything where that's feasible fwiw
<midfavila>
at that point i'm just going to, idk, start learning kernel dev and maybe chip in there
<kris_>
havent heard of hyperbsd
<kris_>
if it's related to freebsd it's very hard for me to be interested though
<midfavila>
hyperbola gnu/linux
<midfavila>
they're now hyperbola gnu/bsd
<midfavila>
:v
<midfavila>
they forked obsd
<kris_>
..that's the dumbest shit i've ever heard
<kris_>
i'm here for it
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
hyperbola also ported xenocara to linux
<midfavila>
and they use pacman but no arch repos
<midfavila>
they're very mid-coded
<midfavila>
i think they also endorse UXP
<midfavila>
instead of modern webshit
<kris_>
i guess that completes it
<kris_>
we have bsd/linux (chimera linux)
<kris_>
and now gnu/bsd
<midfavila>
we've had gnu+bsd for ages
<midfavila>
we've had gnu+darwin too
<kris_>
i'll be interested in openbsd as a daily driver once VMM is useful
<kris_>
though openbsds package manager is kind of horrible
<kris_>
it does the job though ig
<midfavila>
i doubt you would like hbsd tbqh lol
<kris_>
highly unlikely because i don't see a point
<kris_>
are they using glibc on top of that? lol
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
musl afaik
<midfavila>
but dont quote me
<kris_>
just dawned on me that i have literally only one glibc system left
<midfavila>
yeah they develop iceweasel which is a pale moon fork
<kris_>
and that was only on glibc because of bugs with qemu on void musl that were literally undiagnosable for me
<kris_>
spent weeks on that and said fuck it and moved to void glibc
<midfavila>
sounds like a void issue
<kris_>
given that problem doesnt exist on gentoo musl im guessing so
<kris_>
lol
<midfavila>
i use qemu on musl all the time
<kris_>
but that's not particularly useful
<midfavila>
on arm even
<kris_>
i wanted to figure out the problem
<midfavila>
the problem was void
<midfavila>
:v
<kris_>
shut
<midfavila>
void is,
<midfavila>
LE BAD
<kris_>
i love void
<midfavila>
*FACT*
<midfavila>
checkmate liberal
<kris_>
..just wish they'd be more careful with what they merge.
<kris_>
the final straw that lead to me pinning all of my packages and looking for alternative solutions was getting home from work after updating my desktop and shutting down the night before was none of my usb devices working
<kris_>
tldr a usbguard update was not tested *at all*
<kris_>
like quite literally at all because the daemon spat out the error on startup
<kris_>
but the difference is that usually if i'm merging things into a kiss install i'm free at that point to actually pay attention to shit
<kris_>
not >getting home from work and wanna play a game
<midfavila>
computer is game now
<kris_>
idk i like gentoo
<midfavila>
gentoo is just shitty kiss
<midfavila>
= w=
<kris_>
dammit mid quit i'm trying to be happy with something
<kris_>
>:C
<midfavila>
you aren't allowed to be happy
<midfavila>
no fun allowed
<kris_>
and i dont at all view kiss and gentoo as even similar
<midfavila>
this is a serious channel for serious people to seriously engage in serious business
<kris_>
entirely different approaches to something similar
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<kris_>
im fine with fucking w kiss on like my desktop for example because if my desktop is down, fuck it
<midfavila>
gentoo just seems overly complicated
<kris_>
it absolutely is
<midfavila>
honestly even kiss sort of is
<kris_>
but once you actually understand it, it isn't bad
<kris_>
imo
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<midfavila>
dependency resolution is BLOAT
<kris_>
is not
<midfavila>
is too
<midfavila>
use make
<kris_>
thats the thing that has prevented me from even trying slackware
<midfavila>
bro
<midfavila>
gonna blow your mind
<midfavila>
slackware, right
<midfavila>
all of it is already installed
<midfavila>
like it's right there
<kris_>
yeah and that's a fucking problem
<midfavila>
not really
<midfavila>
if you want it to just werk slackware is king
<kris_>
for what its worth i worked on getting kiss to the point of being a daily driver for like 3 weeks straight
<kris_>
it took me like.. 2 days? with gentoo
<midfavila>
what
<midfavila>
how
<midfavila>
how did it take you that long
<midfavila>
serious question
<kris_>
i obviously wasn't working on it 24/7 but there's just a lot of shit to deal with because i use complex software
<midfavila>
what was so complex it took you 3+ weeks
<midfavila>
?????
<kris_>
packaging upwards of 1000 things
<kris_>
and you know what that means?
<midfavila>
what the fuck were you packaging is what i mean
<kris_>
*i* am not the target demographic for that
<kris_>
midfavila it's less about what and more about the quanity and dependencies
<kris_>
one thing that threw me for a loop was elogind
<kris_>
and libvirt
<kris_>
and a handful of other shitty things that i wish i didnt want/need
<midfavila>
why do you need libvirt and elogind
<kris_>
because i use features they provide
<kris_>
this is gonna piss you off but literally every computer i own is a virtualization host
<midfavila>
yes that's very silly
<kris_>
which is the use gentoo is currently serving on my server
<midfavila>
i just use shell scripts to manage my VMs when i do stuff with qemu
<midfavila>
works fine
<kris_>
i use shit like virtiofsd from libvirt
<kris_>
and control my VMs remotely with virt-manager which assumes libvirt
* midfavila
shrugs
<midfavila>
just ssh in
<midfavila>
dunno what to tell you
<kris_>
there's a lesson there
<kris_>
just saying
<midfavila>
when i say i don't know what to tell you, it's more a diplomatic way of disagreeing with your approach
<midfavila>
- w-
<kris_>
yeah and that's the lesson i'm talking about
<kris_>
anyway point is
<kris_>
local server is actually functional now
<kris_>
its been down for months because of problems ive been having with X, Y, Z
<kris_>
took me like 3 hours and 50ish minutes of which was compiling to get everything set up on gentoo and everything really stripped down via use flags
<kris_>
and its nice that i can just global disable things
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<kris_>
really i think if this isn't reducing cognitive load idk what is
<kris_>
a fren of mine has been working on rewriting portage though because her and i both share a distaste for pulling in things like python for things that are system critical
<midfavila>
most of the software i use tends to not really even have configuration options so such things from my perspective are entirely superfluous
<midfavila>
also yes your packaging job is an abomination
<midfavila>
sewn is right
<midfavila>
sorry not sorry
<kris_>
wait until you hear that i just pulled that from alpine
<midfavila>
use linux from scratch at least
<midfavila>
if you're going to do that
<kris_>
i'm confused on what the hell you guys are even complaining about
<kris_>
this is *how* you build systemds stub loader
<midfavila>
first of all, systemd
<midfavila>
second of all, meson
<sewn>
no mid
<sewn>
you're effectively doing ad hominem on software projects
<midfavila>
you're doing a fallacy fallacy
<midfavila>
you need to point out why the fallacy is wrong, not just that there's a fallacy
<sewn>
you're just saying "oh its systemd its bad"
<midfavila>
systemd and meson are bad because they overcomplicate things
<sewn>
wdym fallacy fallacy
<sewn>
no????
<kris_>
if you want to complain about my packaging i'm sure there's some shit there for you to complain about but i refute the idea that this is one of them
<kris_>
the only excess thing being compiled here is systemd-boot because i have no other choice
<kris_>
because of just systemd being shit that way
<midfavila>
you're acting like the mere presence of a fallacy renders an entire argument irrelevant
<sewn>
no I'm using it to prove its wrong
<midfavila>
systemd isn't intrinsically bad, it's bad because it overcomplicates things
<midfavila>
no, you aren't
<sewn>
you're already doing fallacy fallacy let's go back to systemd
<midfavila>
moving the goalposts
<midfavila>
:3c
<kris_>
i really enjoy moving goalposts
<midfavila>
shadow clone goalposts
<midfavila>
that's the new name for red herrings
<kris_>
not only is it effective at making people upset but it makes the owners of the stadium LIVID
<kris_>
midfavila: also regardless of how much stuff has to be disabled with systemd to minimize time wasted compiling just to get the stub file- regardless of how you *feel* about systemd this still results in the most minimal and secure boot chain you can have
<kris_>
outside of something like using libreboots proper FDE
<kris_>
and i don't exactly trust libreboot anyway so
<kris_>
too lazy to audit it and then reaudit every update
<midfavila>
kris_: and do you have a reasonable threat profile?
<midfavila>
or is it security for its own sake?
<kris_>
both
<midfavila>
because like, i don't particularly care if it's theoretically the most secure or whatever
<midfavila>
and it's definitely not the most minimal lol
<kris_>
i mean sure you can just stub the kernel directly but i don't take that setup seriously
<midfavila>
you can just use a ~300b assembly program to load and directly execute the kernel
<midfavila>
works fine
<midfavila>
did it for years
<kris_>
? the kernel can execute itself lol
<midfavila>
you still need to load the kernel off the disk
<midfavila>
under BIOS
<kris_>
yeah i dont and havent used bios in like 15 years
<midfavila>
i don't bother with UEFI
<midfavila>
so
* midfavila
shrugs
<kris_>
also the extent to which i take hardening my systems probably does seem silly
<kris_>
but i just want to point out the fact that it changes how you feel about stuff like this when you're literally raided by the police and have all of your devices confiscated
<kris_>
it's hardly any extra effort, this is one of those things where i think people are just being lazy consoomers
<midfavila>
yeah i've had my shit searched too. they can force you to unlock it if there's reasonable suspicion and they get a warrant.
<midfavila>
the problem is security as some sort of intrinsic virtue
<kris_>
i'm still kind of unclear on that
<kris_>
in the US courts have generally ruled that giving up encryption passphrases or otherwise adjacent counts as self incrimination and we cannot be forced/persuaded to do so period
<kris_>
fucking who knows what's going to happen with that shortly though
<midfavila>
yeah and you theoretically can't be black bagged either
<kris_>
probably will just be completely disregarded
<midfavila>
but that's happening in broad daylight
<kris_>
yeah we're at v for vendetta hours
<midfavila>
but anyway, it's the same problem i have with like, premature or overly broad optimisation
<midfavila>
not just in software but in general
<kris_>
this may blow your mind but i also just find it fun
<midfavila>
yeah you can just do it for fun, that's fine
<midfavila>
i don't actually have an issue with that
<midfavila>
obviously
<kris_>
the thing is
<kris_>
none of this is intrusive to how i use my computer
<kris_>
it causes me zero extra heartache
<midfavila>
and if it works well for you, go for it. but it all seems like a massive pain to me.
<midfavila>
needs all this extra infra and stuff.
* midfavila
shrugs
<kris_>
everyone has varying degrees of patience for various things
<kris_>
it's highly individualized
<kris_>
and the extra infra isnt necessary whatsoever
<kris_>
half of my shit exists because my main vm host was fucking broken due to void
<kris_>
which is no longer necessary as of yesterday
<kris_>
one thing i'd like to press is that i don't do the things i do for no reason, i just rarely feel like i want to express those reasons
<kris_>
if you want more information on *why* i've made a specific choice, ask
<kris_>
like for the systemd thing for example, i *could* boot my machines another way and give up a little bit of security and speed just to avoid systemd but i'm not willing to do that just to avoid a project as a whole
<kris_>
in the same vein that i'm not going to ignore a distro entirely just because it uses some init system i dislike, assuming some other part of it offsets that
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<riteo>
chat I'm gonna be honest fedora is actually pretty sweet
<riteo>
put it on my momma pc to replace debian
<riteo>
it just werks™
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<kris_>
how the hell did you ^tm
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<il>
I don't know
<il>
I've used plenty of set-it-and-forget-it distros over the years, but I usually completely dismantle them at some point and they're just a package management system and repos at that point